Podcast Show #3
Thursday, 13. August 2009
Philip Giraldi discusses the Israel Lobby, Larry Franklin, the recent scandal involving Representative Jane Harman, the continuous erosion of our civil liberties, and much more.
Philip Giraldi is a former CIA and DIA counter-terrorism officer, member of the American Conservative Defense Alliance, and contributing editor at The American Conservative magazine. He has a regular column, Smoke & Mirrors, on Antiwar.com.
Here is our guest Philip Giraldi unplugged!
Anonymous Says:
When I try to subscribe to the podcast in iTunes it only downloads the sunsetstrip radio id test. It doesn't download any of the podcasts
Metemneurosis Says:
Geraldi during the late part of this interview (37 minutes in) brings up the mysterious nature of the motivation the government has to keep trying to go further and further toward a police state. I've never been able to do a lot of research into it to try to satisfy myself on the issue but I think that if Mike Ruppert is right about the real dangers presented by peak oil that would explain why they need to try to move gradually toward having police state capabilities.
Specifically he says peak oil doesn't just threaten our highly energy consumptive way of life but also seriously threatens the world food supply to the extent that once we run out of oil and gas it could be that several billion people will starve. There will be a lot of unrest if that happens to say the least.
Before the discovery of oil there were roughly 2 billion people on earth by the time we run out there could be as many as 9 billion. Most fertilizer is made using large amounts of natural gas as an ingredient and most pesticides require oil. Not only that most of the world 'bread basket' here in the US and in Canada has been mono-cropped for 60 years, so without fertilizer it will be useless for growing food.
Here's a quote:
"Dr Fatih Birol, the chief economist at the respected International Energy Agency (IEA) in Paris . . . [said] Even if demand remained steady, the world would have to find the equivalent of four Saudi Arabias to maintain production, and six Saudi Arabias if it is to keep up with the expected increase in demand between now and 2030"
Saudia Arabia has roughly 25% of all the world oil. We're not going to find 4 more.
from this article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/warning-oil-supplies-are-running-out-fast-1766585.html
And here's another:
http://scitizen.com/screens/blogPage/viewBlog/sw_viewBlog.php?idTheme=14&idContribution=2850
In the short term there's also the threat of hyper-inflation.
http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/153948922/the-second-wave-of-the-depression-hyperinflation
Sibel Edmonds Says:
I apologize for the ITune incident; now it is all fixed. It's hard doing this from here-thank you for being understanding.
Metem: thank you; good point as always. I respect Giraldi, and loved having him on the show. He will be a frequent guest (I hope!).
Metemneurosis Says:
I guess I should have mentioned too that I got some of the above info from Ruppert's new book A Presidential Energy Policy, which came our earlier this year. And I should also point to his blog, which he only participates in marginally now but keeps up with the attendant issues.
http://www.mikeruppert.blogspot.com/
Anonymous Says:
Shukriya Mitesh (Thank you, Mitesh)
Catherine Fitts is another heroine.
Check out Justin Sutton, Jeremy Rifkin, and Roy McAlister for the solution to the energy crisis.
Simon
bh Says:
@ mete
Since you are short on time for research, allow me…
http://www.xat.org/xat/moneyhistory.html
http://archive.richardheinberg.com/archive/149.html
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9219858826421983682
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031&q=bush+kennedy+assassination&hl=en
That should keep you busy a while, mete.
If it doesn't freak you out too much, there's plenty more where that came from.
bh Says:
And… I recently caught the latest evolution of Loose Change: "The Final Cut" that covers a lot of financial ground as well as American MSM:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3719259008768610598&hl=en
bh Says:
Best show yet, Sibel.
bh Says:
Have you read Robert Baer's books, mete?
Metemneurosis Says:
No I haven't read Baer though I'm familiar with some of what he says filtered through other sources. And I've seen some of the other stuff you linked to above. Thanks for the Heinberg link though. Unfortunately any kind of research for me is going to have to wait for a while whether I like it or not.
Mitesh Damania Says:
Woops! I messed up with the link. here's the correct one:
Guys, check out Catherine Austin Fitts:
http://www.askbutwhy.com/search/label/%22Catherine%20Austin%20Fitts%22
I hope you check out fair trade on the blog too!
bh Says:
metem,
I highly recommend Bob Baer's books. There really is no substitute for the real thing.
Then again… I recommend anything by Richard Bach just as highly.
Edit_Mommies Says:
You find the people, finding themselves, tearfully attached to security clearance. I'm sure this is cutting edge interpretation and isn't assignment. When transfixed the greed tears them apart with future reassurance healing the damaged parts. This phenomenon doesn't exactly manifest in a generational "sense". Nor is "Human" growth responsive with any category of belief as the impulse is grossly identified as comfort. Money is really just component detail. We can find proof of short lived aesthetics exampling short lived drug addiction or mourning. More often than not their is a peculiarity involving spacial reasoning that draws people away from their Mother's breast, I think, I don't remember. I remember they just take the coffin outside and bury "it". I know it is sad and I don't think Jet Fighters are the worst idea we have ever had. I always liked frisbees. The fact, most of the Human's avoid sensitive information because it rips our flesh. Teamwork without weapons or drugs??? What's your next assigment? Heal 'em with candy? Monster complacency a defeatist principle? A really cool weapon…
Anonymous Says:
I wish you had asked Giraldi about Mega. If you have him on again please do so.
hayfster Says:
Paul Sabatier 1859-1941, Nobel in Chem 1912. The process he describes is known as the methanation of carbon dioxide.
4H2 + CO2 + solar energy = CH4 + 2H2O
Anonymous Says:
Are we allowing ourselves to believe that AIPAC is really a pro-Israeli lobby, when, in fact, they appear to be little more than a tax free Arms Industry Lobby and seems to regard Israel and Israelis as little more than loss leader chattel, falsely empowered by the old "chosen people" dominion heresy shtick and a few thinner than air blood shekels traded on the temple steps, for the brutalization of defenseless Palestinians to assure a "forever market" for the US War Drug and Oil Exchange?
AIPAC is not an Israeli Lobby. It's a Lobby for US War Industries. It is strange that Clinton's Republican Secretary of Defense Cohen (high priest) and his Cohen Group managed to get a permit for an F-16 factory in Turkey – just a stones throw from Israel.
Anonymous Says:
Another silly fact of the theater of national security is this silly phone tap skit whereby unwarranted taps are allowed should it found that a phone number known to belong to an alleged terrorist dials a US phone number.
How do they know the phone number belongs to a terrorist. Any terrorist worth his or her druthers knows not to use a phone to communicate.
And besides – any high schooler can reprogram any cell phone to show any phone number he desires before he uses it to make a call. That technology is commercially available. If a high schooler can do it, the it is very likely, regardless of how impossible it seems (I saw an OJ tape where an FBI lab technician could not even recall the value of PI) that an FBI agent, or NSA / HLS contractor could do the same – reprogram a phone with the ID of a "known" terrorist and then make the call to someone they needed to tap – perhaps for copyright, business or trade secret information – or just to lather up the old catchers mitt – and use the theatrical evidence to justify the tap.
But still – how do they know it's a terrorist's cell phone number – is there a Yellow Pages category titled "Known Terrorist Cell Phone Numbers".
It's two levels bovine excrement – and how anyone could believe that one follow the other or that the charade is anything more that cow dung with a NSA/HLS stamp of approval across it, defies the discriminatory skills of a sea cucumber. It's bogus and ridiculous to the core!
Anonymous Says:
Sibel, thank you. About 2 days ago a satellite image of a facility located on Burma (Myanmar) appeared on Whatreallyhappened.com. Israel has a pretty interesting history of Arms Dealing there too. Today this development… http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jE8LnMfJUXtiojPF2JYPHCGkGGvQ
Anonymous Says:
Here is the Facility, For Israels imvolvement just use a search engine and use key words Myanmar (or Burma)and Israel. http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/mysterious-burmese-facility-revealed-on-google-earth-20090810-effa.html
Kingfisher Says:
"AIPAC is not an Israeli Lobby. It's a Lobby for US War Industries."
Maybe, but I don't think so. Israel reverse engineers and steals American technology to use in their own products for export. This costs US Defense Contractors' bottom line. Israel's economy is substantially dependent on defense and security product exports, and is competitor to US firms in certain markets.
Do the "US War Industries" benefit from the Israel and the Israel lobby? Absolutely, but that is just one faction of the lobby, and you are writing-off a host of other factions and factors; not to mention inadvertently excusing Israel and its lobby's conduct.
Anonymous Says:
Metemneurosis
Peak oil is a lie. The Russians have found 500 years worth using the same growth rate we've had in the last 10 years.
On the north slope, the biggest hardware investment has been for turbines to pump the oil back into the ground.
Peak Oil is a BIG LIE
Why – why do you think Exxon, and other oil companies, have broken the quarterly profit records for a succession of quarters in 2008?
These reason for the move to a Police state is simple. Pretend that instead of Democrats and Republicans or Federal Agency, the name tags, instead read Mafia, Cosa Nostra, The Haves, Gambino. The "haves" violated the law to steal our harvest and are willing to try anything to protect themselves from prosecution and having to return what they pilfered back to the rightful owners, us. They need a police state to protect themselves.
Our congress, our executive branch, our courts,they are not a government pretentiously selected by voting machines or closed door ballot counting by the Ohio Secretary of State. They are grocery clerks and bathroom butlers and blackmailed boy lovers on the dole of their K-Street and Z-Street Pimps in service to the nobility of the US War Drug and Oil Exchange.
Anybody that supports the constitution is now a terrorist. Obama has granted powers to detain without trial or habeas corpus anyone suspected of being a terrorist.
Obama promised open government – most recently he met in secret with big pharma to concoct the shill to sell a health care (read to mean more goodies for insurance AARP, pharma and factory hospitals soon to be Soylent Green processing centers) package his bosses at the Exchanges wrote. Why didn't congress read the bill – because they didn't write the bill.
Obama is right up there with Clinton and Bush in the LIE department. "I will eliminate outsourcing American Jobs" – well he still allows outsourcing – but has shovel ready jobs for us – he wants us to dig our own graves.
I will get out of Iraq. I will close down Guantanamo. I will end exective signing orders. I will end the patriot act. blah .. blah . blah .
When "accused villains" are forced to wear stun belts to confess lies to crimes to give the Crime Family cover for what they do, it is a Police State. Police States are illegal – they are not allowed by the constitution. Police States protect the crime families – that's all they do.
The formalized police state is manifests as Fascism. There are fourteen characteristics of Fascism. "The merger of corporate and government powers in modern America is plain and simple fascism" is a quote from Gerald Celente paraphrasing a speech by Mussolini.
Metemneurosis – put your heart an soul into it – dig deeper – the lies are layers of fall back positions – hiding a terrible secret – inside the closet there is a portrait of Dorian Grey to hideous to show – look for the closet – look for the portrait – everything is a lie.
bh Says:
@ "anonymous"
I've read that story by a journalist who visited Alaska, back in the day, and his source, an "anonymous" oil field worker who allegedly showed him pumps allegedly pumping oil back into the ground. He wrote a book about it that isn't hard to find online.
And now I read about Peter Long, an "environmental futurist" (whatever that means) who "is a master at creating plausible future scenarios" claiming Peak Oil is a lie.
And then I have independent geologists, scientific experts in the field of finding and quantifyling oil deposits saying Peak Oil is real.
I don't claim to be an expert, I don't know what the truth is, but, if I have to trust someone, it probably isn't going to be "anonymous" sources and people with no scientific training or expertise in the area I am concerned with.
Eh?
Anonymous Says:
bh – this function returns the volume correction factor for crude. BTW – I got my info from a guy who works on the north slope.
In the end it does not matter what we beleive as long as it makes us feel righteous to beleive it, eh!
function vcf5a (ialf as double , idt as double)
iterm1 = ialf * idt
iterm2 = int(iterm1 / 5) * 40
iterm3=mpy5a(iterm1, iterm2, 1000)
iterm3 = int((iterm3 + 500) / 1000)
ix = -iterm1 – iterm3
isum1 = 100000000 + ix
isum2= mpy5a(ix, ix, 1000)
isum2 = int((isum2 + 50) / 100 / 2)
isum3= mpy5a(ix, isum2, 1000)
isum3 = int((isum3 + 50) / 100 / 3)
isum4 = mpy5a(ix, isum3, 1000)
isum4 = int((isum4 + 50) / 100 / 4)
isum5 = mpy5a(ix, isum4, 1000)
isum5 = int((isum5 + 50) / 100 / 5)
isum6 = mpy5a(ix, isum5, 1000)
isum6 = int((isum6 + 50) / 100 / 6)
ivcf = isum1 + isum2 + isum3 + isum4 + isum5 + isum6
return ivcf
Anonymous Says:
More News for BH
Peter Long is a politician. He served as a special assistant to the CEO for the Henry J Kaiser Family
Henry J Kaiser is one of those war profiteers who partnered up with Bechtel in 1921. Kaiser and Bechtel Joint Ventures net a lot of profit from oil production.
So your hero, Peter Long, assitant to the war and oil profiteering Kaiser Family's CEO – writes a scare book about peak oil to scare up some fear margins for oil that leads to pricing near 150$ a barrel, when most oil companies were depreciating their assets at 35$ a barrel – and Kaiser and fellow war profiteer Bechtel clean up on your misplaced faith in Peter Long? These daze it pays to use more than one source.
Hmmm … Is that air your breathing.
Zach Says:
I'm going to throw a bit of clarification on a few of the topics in, as many people tend to take an overly simplistic 'black and white' view of things and I'm running on the assumption that many more people read the forum than reply.
Peak oil is a ruse intended to impose a false cap on the industry's supply. The price is correlated directly to the amount of oil supposedly left, which is determined by 'scientists' performing studies funded by the industry.
Diamonds are in the same boat – the majority of the world's supply sits in 'secret' storerooms, severely choking the supply and sending prices skyward (one interpretation of melange).
If 'we' were ever to run out of oil and gas people wouldn't have what is called work anymore, and would return to an agrarian lifestyle.
General health, happiness, and life expectancy would increase.
Something that I haven't seen much discussion on is the 'clean energy' bills. The creation of energy isn't a clean endeavor, and it smacks of Clear Skies.
I am particularly abhorred by the tidal options. Hydroelectric dams have destroyed the natural food sources for entire regions, and the damage potential pales in comparison to that of gargantuan turbines in coastal areas and estuaries.
And while the installation of solar panels will undoubtedly provide some communities with clean sources of energy, I don't see much growth provided in the field of 'green jobs'.
Weren't we already here?
American isn't running, and it isn't staying in the same place.
Anonymous Says:
Zach,
You are correct – cap and trade isn't what it was touted what it would be back in 2002. Cap and Trade is not about clean environment – Cap and Trade is about CO2 derivatives trading.
The American Petroleum Institute (API) runs the EPA. Back in the daze cap and trade meant that emissions inventories would be capped (CAP) under a permit regime, and those facilities that emitted below cap would sell their surplus (TRADE the difference between CAP and their actual emissions (inventory) to facilities that the emitted above their permitted CAP.
Their are mathematical processes out there that can measure losses (emissions) at the transaction level, but the EPA allows big emitters to use an averaging methodology that was intended for small downstream marketing facilities. The averaging methods allow weak assumptions to be applied and depending on who does the accounting can overstate emissions by 100% or understate by 80%.
The EPA compliance guidelines are packaged as AP-42 TOC and VOC (Total / Volatile Organic Compounds). Leaks from Valves and cooling towers, etc are packaged under Fugitive Emission Guidelines.
The big facilities want a large emissions CAP and can afford the lawyers and painless fines because they want to grow and add assets – so the big guys prefer to over state. The little guys who can't afford the "consultants" or fines understate.
It's like they dare you to audit them and then argue under the "Peter Principal" that it's statistically impossible to get it right.
To top it off, the EPA's "free" software is so full of bugs and errors that it will not resolve emissions as they should when compared to a manual application of formulas in the AP-42 compliance docs.
Go take a tour of a refinery or storage facility in your area. Look at the assets – the crackers the storage tanks. You'll probably see riveted tanks. After your visit go to your local CEQ permitting office and look at the permits – you'll probably see construction plans and permits for welded seam assets. Welded seemed assets produce fewer emission than riveted (so welded seams are always claimed before the asset is constructed) – but riveted are cheaper to buy and that's what usually ends up being built. You might also try to remember the number of fixed roof storage vessels you saw on tour and compare that with the number of claimed floating roof storage vessels file with the permitting office. Floating roof tanks are almost zero emissions except when they are filled after being completely empty – which is know an "event" and rarely reported truthfully.
We've come full circle – CAP now means capitalize on taxpaying Americans' ignorance and TRADE means share the wealth throughout the Bildeberg empire that Al Gore's daughter married him into when she was wed to Mr. Schiff 5 years ago.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon -
Mrs. Edmonds – oy vey! I'd say you are getting into show business!
You read the ATC response to your deposition?
Well – you should answer it. I am sure it was Fine who wrote that piece, and well, he did a fine job.
6 months on the job – and you were fired. Now you are milking it for every penny. Got a book coming up?
What have you told us so far – that we could not have read anywhere on globalreserach, or heard on Alex Jones?
You didn't even know the PACs involved? In the end, what is it you overheard in those 6 months at the FBI? What did you hear, for example, about our cooperation with Bin Laden?
I'd suggest, you are a Russian agent – and not a very good one at that. You made a lot of noise, and in the end you were really sent here to organise the Whistleblowers coalition, so that Russia could leverage into American politics.
Your buddy Lukery is now linking to discredited ISI deobandist fanatics who defend Bin Lande, and claim 911 was an inside job.
You run around accusing Hastert and congressmen of taking bribes – when nothing they did differes from standard Washington practice – and in no way amounts to bribes.
I simply see no story behind anything you say. No one even takes you seriously anymore. Your Brewster Jennings revelation – not even mentioned in the media!?
Now we are all waiting for the tape of your deposition – and I am certain, it contains nothing more than what you already made known.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon –
More seriously -
1) Orly Taitz was in the same boat as you. Her website is being marked as an attack site by Google. And many can't access it. (her case, however, has more legal grounds than yours
2) I can tell you, that certain folk with connections in Washington did maintain indirect ties with Taleban, and elements with contact around Bin Laden up till 911.
But I suggest you check a warrant for BL's arrest, deposed in 1998 at 200 quai de Charles de Gaulle, in Lyon.
You see, one of the reasons Bin Laden took us by surprise, is precisely because of a few idiots, who still trusted him, that sometimes had the ear of a few morons in AIC. Mind you, that does not amount to an inside job. It led to confusion – and that's one of the raesons people like Bamford can't figure the story out.
Confusion, is more dangerous than incompetence. Bin Laden, used it to his advantage.
Your story, has no legs – unless you really want to get into legacy programs.
3)If you really know what the Plame affair was about – why don't you just let it out?
4) You are not getting any media traction. In fact, you are only hurting your credibility. Just fully diclose what you overheard at the FBI. Make it public, and go to jail.
Some readers, will again accuse me of trying to get something out of you. Please, don't be silly – you are creating a cult out of yourself, by claiming to know things, we don't. So why not drop the mask. Prove your dedication to democracy. Civil Disobedience always had a price. Why are you not ready to pay it?
Mizgîn Says:
Let's put it this way: neoconservatism and it's followers have been totally discredited by their own shit. We all know that they like to go around braying their "noble lies", yet another of the Straussian ideals that they so EAGERLY embraced because the use of lies was the only way they could fool the flock into waddling over the precipice.
9/11? A "noble" lie. War in Afghanistan? A "noble" lie. War in Iraq? A "noble" lie. And the bullshit Global War on Terror, Inc? Another "noble" lie.
Anonymous Says:
Sibel, A group came through Maine in the fall of 2001. A possible turkish tie in the area is mentioned in item 16 of this. http://educate-yourself.org/tg/TCUriconosciutosummary.shtml
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon –
Mrs. Edmonds. Wikileaks would love to host your stuff. Cryptome as well, but it is not as prepared.
Mizgin. I respect your work, even if it superficial, it often stems from first hand sources – which earns my respect.
But if you dislike NED support to Uigurs, why should anyone here support you? What makes you different form those who believe in a Free East Turkistan?
If you were to receive a NED grant, and yet in your heart you knew you could use it to help Kurds, and it would in no way impair your judgment, or prejudice you – would you not take it? If not, on what grounds? Are you suggesting we have no right, at all, to help coordinate finance of democratic projects (mind you, NED doesn't actually give money!).
As for noble lies.
Please, you read about Neocons in comic books?
We are simply more consistent in democracy promotion. And the only fault you may find with us, is when we evalute wrongly – when we understimate the severity of repression, or exaggerate it.
But believe me, neocons have never run Americas foreign policy. We have at best, had occasional input. But the label has been applied to too many people, many of whom, do not qualify.
A true Neocon, is rigorous about Democracy. Perphas what we share, is belief in Democratic Imperialism – but in the end, so does Mrs. Edmonds, and most of the readers here.
We all agree, that men and women born into this world, MUST BE, born free.
And I am sure you won't argue with that.
Zach Says:
One thing your average neocon has likely yet to consider…
When you run with 'you're with us or you're against us' in a global war on terror,
The whole world might bite back.
Socio/religio/political solipsism at its most slovenly and reprehensible lows.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Anon the Neocon:
Tonight, with my Beluga and Bilinis, while wearing my Siberian Fur shawl, I will have a shot of Vodka to you.
From Russia with Love;-)
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Update: Schmidt drops certain charges after my deposition, Krikorian Press Release & More at BradBlog http://www.bradblog.com/?p=7359
Mizgîn Says:
Let's see Mr. Discredited Neocon . . . after perusing the ATC's website and seeing NOTHING about Sibel, I sashayed over to The Bradblog to see a post about the TCA's DESPERATE ranting about David Krikorian and Sibel.
Now, if you knew anything about the Turks, you'd know that the nanosecond they start shrieking any form of the word "DESPERATE", it means they've stepped on their own weinies big time.
If I were David Krikorian, I'd be enjoying an excruciatingly dry vodka martini–or two–tonight.
Given what Brad Friedman wrote about the TCA's rant, Krikorian, and Sibel, there's really nothing else to add.
Except . . . maybe you should STFU if you don't even know the PACs involved.
Oh, did I mention that TCA funds TALDF? Yeah . . . yeah, I think I did . . . And I used their own documents to prove that.
Metemneurosis Says:
Something you did must have touched a nerve with the neocon Sibel. He seems a lot more irritable and fussy tonight. Maybe he has gas.
@anon the neocon
All this stuff about neocons loving democracy. . . I seem to remember a while back you were lamenting the fact that your neocon brethren weren't as devoted to democracy as you. Now either that means your insane for democracy (in which case can I have a vote toward changing some of your opinions?) or your characterization of the 'true neocon' is more wishful thinking than fact. Or I guess you could have just got it wrong back then. Either way I just can't imagine William Kristol genuinely cares about democracy. I also think of Richard Perle as a neocon. I don't think he gives a sh*t about democracy. He cares about whatever will serve his interest. Here's a good test of your devotion to democracy though, would you recognize Hamas?
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
Hamas. There is no question of recognizing political parties who refuse to recognize the democratic process, or exhibit historical and future animosity to it. That would be illogical.
Both Kristol adn Perle are dedicated to democracy. And their service to this nation overshadows that of the Edmonds by a factor of a thousand. Of that you can rest assured.
Since nearly all of Mrs. Edmonds rhetoric is based on defending Americas Constitution and Citizens' democracy, it is fair to say, that she is on the same page as Kristol and Perle – rhetoric wise.
But do I believe Mrs. Edmond's cares about democracy?
No. The same way you don't believe neocons do. It cuts both ways. You guys don't care if people are born free or not. You always take the side of dictators, pointing out to American errors as proof of our monstrous designs! At least as neocons, we have a record of securing people's freedoms – you don't. Other than releasing info and filing FOIA. Kind of self-styled heros, while we actually topple regimes. What's there to compare?
And it is fair to say, that even neocon ranks opportunists sprang up. People who bring in ancient hatreds, and use "democracy" as a fig-leaf for sustaining that hatred.
Look, I put it very simply – we are democratic imperialists. That's the dividing line. If someone bandwagons because they have beef with one country – that's not democratic imperialism, that's historic feuds.
Mrs. Edmonds, apparently cares about having a readership, and being famous. She is milking 6 months in the FBI, for all it is worth. One wonders what her employment history looks like – whether its full of holes and short stints here and there – because she can't keep a job. I mean this is a fair question.
Of course, it is her right to do what she does. And there is no shame in pursuing a career. By all means, run with it.
But then – people like myself wont care about the rhetoric. We just want the info. We aren't part of the tribe, or getting in the groove. We don't care about future posts about the Church and Warren committees (been there, done that).
Mrs. Edmonds case is very common. Every schmuck who ever had access to "secret" intelligence thinks how he can make his career. It's a natural impulse. She's even got an organisation dedicated to this, called the Whistleblower's Center.
The difference is, that Elsberg and Woodward were a pleasure to read – whereas Mrs. Edmonds – plays american football. Ineloquent, but she runs with it.
It's charming, impressive, and seductive, but again – ineloquent. If you're going to make a career out of it – then at least read-up on stuff, and learn to sound sophisticated. Give us our money's worth.
There is nothing as fun, as hero worship. Everyone saying "you go girl" and "you are so brave". And if someone gets into that, too much into it, it looks pathetic, because it is pathetic. Nothing to do with democracy, freedom, and Armenian genocides.
Compare this with the record of Mssrs. Perle and Kristol. There is nothing to compare. Their life effort has been to defend Democracy, and their service to this nation can fill volume after volume.
At one stage, I though Mrs. Edmonds perhaps in the same league – but it is clear that she is not genuine. I do appreciate being able to express my criticism, and obviously I don't expect to be given the kid-glove treatment and thanked.
I prefer Zubrowka Mrs. Edmonds – that bison grass really makes Vodka worthwhile. Is it just a coincidence then, that you reflect Russian propaganda to the T? And I am assuming RussiaToday has already contacted you about an interview?
Zach Says:
Hero worship fed the soldiers and pulled the rebellion through Valley Forge.
It's idol worship that is pathetic.
Ironic that the first of the Iraqi oil field auctions goes through on the same day as the rather fictional Iraqi 'pull-out', is it not?
Wasn't Hamas democratically elected, while Bush was not?
ericswan Says:
We used to think Hamas was a legitimate contender to power until the state department informed the Prime Minister that we were out of line. How is it then that arms are flowing to the Kurdish Turks from mercenaries hired by that same state department? One poster mentions the circular nature of historical baggage while the next is strictly linear in a give us the facts now. The truth somewhere down the middle is that vast amount of oil that has been stockpiled in the U.S.
bh Says:
Ok, not to perpetuate an off-topic discussion that has apparently moved completely sideways, somewhere off the reservation, but…
I was under the apparently mistaken impression that Peter Long was "your guy", "Mr. Anonymous". That you were referring us to Peter to support your claim that Peak Oil is a lie, eg. I had the impression that Peter Long's position was that Peak Oil is a lie, too.
I've never heard of the guy and haven't got a clue what his views are who he is except that, based on what I was able to dig up in a fast Google search, it would seem he isn't an expert in geology or oil reserves. But, I most certainly could be wrong about that, too.
Have a nice day.
Metemneurosis Says:
Back to possible motivations for why we might be moving toward a police state. Here's something interesting and scary.
bh Says:
Pretty creepy. I wonder how they feel about Opus Dei….
Edit_Mommies Says:
Oil = Hoop Dick Brotha.
Anonymous Says:
BH,
You're correct – your Peter Long is not the same Peter I fired back with. I did not give your post an honest reading. Please accept my humblest apologies.
Peter Long – what a name – can you imagine being called last name first at roll call?
Coach: Long, Peter
Peter: Present ..
Anonymous Says:
Ms Edmonds you may find this interesting on Bradblog-Larissa and your pal Luke Ryland
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/08/lefties-who-lie-to-themselves.html
janet
Rob Says:
Go to Youtube.com
Search for "Florida Man Invents Car that Runs on Water".
He's driving it now.
Everyday.
And it runs on WATER.
So much for the "energy crisis".
Now, when making any assertion, remember, there are two forces that exist in this country. The Elites who bought the US Government in 1913 with the creation of the "Federal" "Reserve" and the the power to issue the nation's money (which is the transferrance of the most prime of sovereign powers to the elites) and the American people – who have to be constantly LIED to by the US elite owned government to manipulate them into thinking all is well.
Google this: "Rothschild Voting Machines".
First, the Elites stole your governments power to issue money, then it bought the media (Newspapers, Radio, TV etc), now they're attempting to steal every single election from here on out with the use of Electronic voting.
Prove it to yourself in the next election. Write in a candidate, say "Alfred Hitchcock", then after the votes have been counted, call your county's board of election and find out how many people voted for someone other than the Corporate Elite owned Democrat or Republican puppet. Don't tell them who you wrote in, but just try to find out if your vote counted.
You'll soon discover YOUR VOTE DOES NOT COUNT.
I'll say that again just so you understand. YOUR VOTE DOES NOT COUNT.
Siebel, if you're a "Russian Spy" then:
Вспомните Siebel, много людей как раз не поймите что правительство США уже было ниспровергано, и оно на очень долгое время теперь. Они были бы сотрястены для того чтобы выучить что все 10 из Манифеста Коммунистической партии были снабжены в Соединенные Штаты?
Anonymous Says:
Anonymous @ August 14, 2009 8:16 PM
You said:
Confusion, is more dangerous than incompetence. Bin Laden, used it to his advantage.
I think you're adding to the confusion:
1) First, the FBI admits they do not have enough evidence to indict Bin Laden.
2) Second, old Bin himself has denied, on several occasions, he had anything to do with /11.
3) Third, the BBC has finally admitted that AL KADA never existed except an alleged a CIA – MI5 – Mossad database.
4) Fourth, Seymour Hersh, of the New Yorker, as well as others have found that the US and Israel contract or create so called AL KADA hit squads from alleged Sunni groups like Fatah Al Islam and Mossad. Notice the fake AL KADA Mossad guy in the back of the cell that looks like he's trying to recall weather or not he locked his keys in the car, well he showed up a couple of years later in New Zealand stealing passports from disabled teenagers.
5) Fifth – the only guy to have admitted destroying any WTC assets on /11 was the new owner, Larry Silverstein, who went against the grain of conventional Jewish Merchant Wisdom, and purchased the WTC Complex, despite it being condemned twice for asbestos and under waiver at the time of purchase for the very same, in August of 2001.
There are a host of other issues – Old Bin did not have anything to do with the three terror drills going on over the skies of NYC that day, Bin did not instruct the FAA in the spring of 2001 to turn off radar targeting at control towers so that air traffic controllers would only have transponders to rely on. The Bin Monster under your bed of confusion did not hire air traffic controller Pete Zalewski who has the distinction of being the only air controller in the universe to have the com for 3 alleged terror flights, two on /11 and Egypt 990. But that coincidence is not near as remarkable as the associated with the PNAC Fellow, Dov Zacheim, who headed a company that engineered the remote flight control systems that are, and have been, installed on all commercial airliners licensed for US air space, as well as the DoD comptroller when Don Rumsfeld reported a 2.3 Trillion Dollar misappropriation on September 10, 2001. Unfortunately the alleged plane that hit the Pentagon, limited the damage and deaths to the office that was auditing Dov's Lost Trillions, destroying the computers and financial records collected, and killed all the auditors.
Anonymous, inside jobs need inside queens, and there were a plethora of queens, from man in the street stooges, to the 24 minutes before it happened BBC report.
And there's a ton more – so how and why are you here with the old "Bin Laden took advantage" shtick?
Anonymous Says:
Annonymous @ August 14, 2009 8:16 PM
You say I can tell you, that certain folk with connections in Washington did maintain indirect ties with Taleban … (a guy with inside knowledge – my herooo)
How do you mean that?
First, consider this, around 9/11, a barrel of oil was near or below 30$. A similar barrel of refined opium was near or above 1 Million Dollars.
Regarding the Taleban and oil – they were in a meeting with US official in July of 2001 (They met with UNOCAL and DoE officials regarding a pipeline right of way through Afghanistan in Sugarland Texas in 1997 and refused the right of away) where they again refused and were threatened (just a few weeks before 911).
"The Americans indicated to us that in case the Taliban does not behave and in case Pakistan also doesn't help us to influence the Taliban, then the United States would be left with no option but to take an overt action against Afghanistan."
Does the above quote sound like a typical contractor turning down US taxpayer money.
But the real damage was the fact , and this was reported by UN inspectors, that the Taleban had completely eliminated poppy production. Zero opium was being produced in Afghanistan on 911 – that fact ate away at the top line of a lot of Wall Street money Launderers. But fortunately, guys like the last NYSE commissioner De Grasso were still able to cut dope and money laundering deals with the Columbian FARC.
What's your point all about – you got one thing coming out of one side and another out the other. What's with the cryptic non specific double news speak? Can you just say what you mean instead of meaningless innuendo and implication? Again – why are you saying that stuff – where are you from – what's your agenda?
Kingfisher Says:
Anonymous says:
"3) Third, the BBC has finally admitted that AL KADA never existed except an alleged a CIA – MI5 – Mossad database."
The name is al-Qaeda, or alternatively it can be transliterated as al-Qaida or al-Qa’ida. I usually just go with the acronym AQ. What the hell Al KADA? Al Kada sounds like used car salesmen’s name. If you are going to come here and sanctimoniously spout your theories (which I wish you wouldn’t do) at least use the real term so people will know what you are talking about.
The clip that you claim the BBC admits that “AL KADA never existed except an alleged a CIA – MI5 – Mossad database” comes from Adam Curtis’ documentary “The Power of Nightmares”. While I highly recommend the documentary as a whole, there are parts that Curtis gets wrong and this is one of them as bin Laden expert Peter Bergen points out in a review of the documentary:
Curtis claims that "Al Qaeda" was first "invented" in 2001 when US prosecutors put four men involved in the 1998 plot to blow up two US embassies in East Africa on trial in New York. During the trial they drew heavily on the testimony of former bin Laden associate Jamal al-Fadl, who spun a story about the Saudi militant that would make it easier for US prosecutors to target bin Laden using conspiracy laws that had previously put Mafia bosses behind bars. Curtis explains:
"The picture al-Fadl drew for the Americans of bin Laden was of an all-powerful figure at the head of a large terrorist network that had an organized network of control. He also said that bin Laden had given this network a name, Al Qaeda….But there was no organization. These were militants who mostly planned their own operations and looked to bin Laden for funding and assistance. He was not their commander. There is also no evidence that bin Laden used the term "Al Qaeda" to refer to the name of a group until after September the 11th, when he realized that this was the term the Americans had given it."
This is nonsense. There is substantial evidence that Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 by bin Laden and a small group of like-minded militants, and that the group would mushroom into the secretive, disciplined organization that implemented the 9/11 attacks. Two years ago the minutes of the founding meetings of Al Qaeda (which had been discovered in Bosnia) were described in court documents in a trial in Chicago. Those meetings took place in August 1988 and involved bin Laden and Abu Ubaidah al-Banshiri, who would later become Al Qaeda's military commander. The participants in the meetings discussed "the establishment of a new military group" consisting of a "qaida," or "base." In a handwritten organizational chart of the new group, bin Laden, who then went by the alias of Abu Abdullah, is at the top.
There's more go read the rest.
Kingfisher Says:
"And there's a ton more – so how and why are you here with the old "Bin Laden took advantage" shtick?"
"What's your point all about – you got one thing coming out of one side and another out the other. What's with the cryptic non specific double news speak? Can you just say what you mean instead of meaningless innuendo and implication? Again – why are you saying that stuff – where are you from – what's your agenda?"
Obviously I can’t speak for ‘Anon the NeoCon’, but I do appreciate his contributions here – even if I normally loath the red-diaper-baby Jacobin Neocons. Your material, which apparently you have “a ton more”, is either; misinterpreted out of context, just wrong, highly speculative, or just plain crap. ‘Anon the NeoCon’ is here because he can communicate intelligently his point without frothing at the mouth. Further, though many disagree with him, they for the most part do not get their knickers in a bunch about because they are secure in their opinions and beliefs. They do not information that is incongruent to their worldview personally or as a threat.
It's not "meaningless innuendo and implication" if you’ve actually done your homework in reading serious material instead of trolling the conspiracy theory mill all day.
Why don't you give these a read then come back to us:
"Mystics and Commissars, Sufism in the Soviet Union", by Alexandre Bennigsen and S. Enders Wimbush
"Devil's Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam", by Robert Dreyfuss
"The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia", by Peter Hopkirk
Metemneurosis Says:
Finally the truth behind the American Empire revealed.
Zach Says:
I've seen more than one personally modified vehicle that runs on water with my own eyes.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Greetings,
Still traveling. This is a great country (so far;-).
After tomorrow I'll be in one place for a week. Hopefully I'll be able to post a few things.
Janet: I am thankful to BradBlog for covering the latest, and for doing it professionally. As for other issue you mentioned: has nothing to do with me. I have kept my distance from those kinds of absurd 'blog gossip & socializing.' I will not change that. My priorities in life: being the best mother I can be to my daughter solo, and a very few friends, and trying to do my part for truth and justice (tiny little part that I can humbly contribute). These people must have nothing to do in life other than cheap talk, stalking, gossip or whatever…I am trying to do my best to keep this blog/site from people like that… enough said.
Eric Pottenger Says:
this comment is directed to Anon the Neocon.
Anon, your comments to this blog have intrigued me since I started visiting this site. I have oftentimes asked myself why you visit here–it seems you disagree with about every perspective that's posted. I imagine you as an old, grumpy school teacher, trying to talk "adult" sense to an unruly class of middle schoolers. are you trying to "teach" here, learn here, or what? your stance doesn't seem to be one of genuine respect, which is fine, but it also means you don't "share" with the same intensity as the rest. maybe I'm mistaken. a little insight might help me solve to riddle.
moving on, your comments about democracy and freedom and dictatorship are worthy of discussion, as you seem to equate "democracy" with "freedom," which is pretty absurd if you think about it.
I've been turning pages in one of Walter Lippmann's old books as of late, specifically his book "The Phantom Public," in which he outlines his views regarding the value of public information and public power in a democratic society. he concludes that the information the public receives should be directed toward their emotional support of decisions OTHERS have made; that, in a modern democracy, the public hasn't the time, awareness, or know-how to be an actual participant in the administrative functions of society. and yet they are numerous; and most importantly, they THINK that, since they live in democracies, they are part of the process. how to address this political and social discord, this is the role of the social propagandist in modern DEMOCRATIC society.
has "democracy" changed? let us take a look: un-democratic power structure; un-democratic distribution of spoils; un-democratic distribution of guns; un-democratic distribution of planning and education; un-democratic distribution of the instruments to "manufacture consent" (the phrase is Lippmannn's, or maybe Edward Bernays'–not Chomsky).
Eric Pottenger Says:
to anon the neocon, continued:
so just what is it about this idea, this so-called democracy that you support?
to me, your democracy sounds like a tranquilizer. it sounds like the world today. it sounds like bullshit.
of course I'm yet another pampered American; I should have nothing to complain about, right?
to say that I truly have a "democratic spirit" is different, to my mind, than saying I support or believe in your neocon democracy.
this "democracy" you speak of, what is it?
I'm not trying to get all first-year government on you but this idea of "freedom" as "democracy" seems childish, much like our normal public discourse; much like Lippmann thought our discourse should be limited to: an emotional appeal, nothing more.
here's a question: how can any intelligent discourse about political systems be divorced from an analysis of political and economic power?
if you were genuinely concerned with elevating the public discourse with illuminating perspectives, wouldn't you not spend more time discussing the 'real world' of power and self-interest, meaning, economic, political, national, etc., and not just empty political philosophy that, obviously, conceals more than it reveals?
or perhaps you somehow believe that such a realpolitik analysis is evidence of some crude, angry, class-conscious Marxian rubbish; some "conspiracy theorist" taken hostage by an emotional assault?
but the question DOES need asking: where does power and self-interest lie in your scheme of things?
you can get specific if you'd like. please. get specific.
here's another curiosity of mine (as you claim to be a "neocon" perhaps you can provide me with an answer): recently I've been trying to figure out whether "neoconservative" is closer to defining a "type of person," or closer to an "ideological point-of-view."
you claimed above that "a true neocon is rigorous about Democracy."
now, to my understanding, "democracy" can be looked upon as both a means and an end. so which is it that the neocons are more closely aligned? which is it that YOU are more closely aligned? perhaps my perspective has been limited in unhealthy ways, but it seems the neocons I've uniformly read about are the most fervent supporters of troop build-ups and coercive manipulation of civic institutions, which certainly isn't consistent with democracy as "means."
how does one separate "means" from "ends"? this is a fair question, wouldn't you agree.
I've got more curiosities, but I'll wait first for your responses.
Anonymous Says:
Why thank, Mr Kingfish. .. still passing out the matza ball kool aid down under I presume.
And thank you for correcting my speling – I want to be just like you – a master editor of thought and draft.
So – you ride a 3 horse source – all C-SPAN celebs and ZOG publishing house shills.
I read what architects and engineers have to say about high quantities of high quality US weapons grade nano thermite in the NYC dust , and you NYC taste of the towners – who by some chance – and only known to you – are able to cite absolute truth that magically passed through the censors inside ZOG's hardcover pulp fiction rag houses.
Straight out of Balfour, through to Versailles and finally to land on a checkout rack of Wal Mart allowed Zen for the phony tough and quasi intellectual wine tasting sissies of the self aggrandized priests of smarty pants known for knowing all stuff of fluff in the lame brain popular reader series.
You look in the mirror and say, "What a guy!" while most who endure the intrusion of your form say "A tender flank for my barbecue spit!"
You say Obviously I can’t speak for ‘Anon the NeoCon’, and I say you provide him with an excellent reason to keep plenty K&Y on stock – on hand – and on the ham! Come on – admit it – you're lover's – don't play coy or be shy – the comment area doesn't have a "don't ask don't tell policy" you little tart. You found the quarter in his pocket – and haven't looked back since!
And you claim I spend my day trolling the conspiracy theory mill Since when is CNN, CBS, the BBC, the UN, the CBC, the Guardian, etc – since when are those rumor mills. But a very clever 101 challenge – I'd have never thought you'd reach such heights of brilliance after only 3 paragraphs and just before 3 bibliographies of off the shelf ZOG pulp!
What a man!!!!! (_|_)
Metemneurosis Says:
@Anon the Neocon Look let me first say that I do for the most part enjoy having your dissenting voice around. Sometimes I get genuinely annoyed at what you say. I'm sure you're genuinely annoyed by me too. But I also have to say that the comments you've made on this thread almost don't even sound like you. I seriously started to wonder if it was someone else playing a prank. Your sudden change of attitude seems almost inexplicable to me unless you're really angered by something Ms. Edmonds revealed. Perhaps it's just that you think the behavior of these congressmen and women was par for the course and, in your eyes, a necessity for the strategic interest of the country and you're upset that it's being exposed. If that's what it is then you're a lot more like Perle than I had supposed originally when you said that you cared more about democracy than some of your compatriots. Isn't it a necessity for democracy that the public be informed about what they're representative's are doing in order to be able to vote for the government they want. If they don't even know the people they're really voting for it might as well be eeny meeny minee mo. You don't seem to upset that this isn't getting public coverage for the sake of democracy.
On Hamas, I'm genuinely interested here, please point me to evidence that they present a threat to any future democratic process in Palestine. I don't mean this to be sarcastic or a challenge because I think you can't meet it. The Palestinian conflict is a pet issue of mine.
In any case you're saying that Kristol and Perle have done more for this country than . . . whoever is really, literally jaw dropping to me. I had expected you to make a more dismissive response and say something like 'not all neocons are alike'.
William Kristol strikes me as a man obsessed with an ideology and willing to do anything to see those who will further that ideology get and remain in power, democratic values be damned. Perle strikes me the same way except that he also seems to be much more concerned with Israel. I can't believe that Perle would want to let the public in on any of his schemes nor would he be too worried if he had to sidestep any basic democratic institutions to further his goals. Democracy building seems more like a good public relations spin to me. I'm sure he just sees it as a means to his end. 'Callous', 'dissembling', 'ruthless', 'calculating' are the words that come to mind. I'd also add 'cold-blooded murderer', 'pathological liar', and 'self-deluded', and 'megalomaniac' to Perle's list. And probably 'racist' too.
Anonymous Says:
Sibel Edmonds is featured throughout this article, August 14, 2009. It would be interesting to find out how much of the article matches Sibel's story:
http://www.daily.pk/uighur-nationalism-turkey-and-the-cia-8798/
Regards,
"Tom Joad"
Anonymous Says:
Trying to keep it on topic. Mr. Giraldi seems to be overlooked. Much of what I got from his interview implicated Israeli Mossad and AIPAC. The current thread seems to have digressed but certainly Turkey becomes key to this story as Sibel has said all along. Metem has particular concern about the Palestinian issue, so let's tie that in. I heard Jerry Levin speak. He escorts Palestinian children to school despite settler abuse from Hebron. It became the critical moment when I decided I could no longer support the Zionist state of Israel. I became conflicted, because I have many dear Jewish friends. My religious beliefs also reminded me that taking on Jewish issues was fraught with danger.
I think some of the answer may lie in the excerpt I lifted from Wikipedia: The Khazars were a semi-nomadic Turkic people who dominated the Pontic steppe and the North Caucasus from the 7th to the 10th century CE. The name 'Khazar' seems to be tied to a Turkic verb form meaning "wandering".
In the 7th century CE, the Khazars founded an independent Khaganate in the Northern Caucasus along the Caspian Sea . Although the Khazars were initially Tengri shamanists , many converted to the Abrahamic faiths through interaction with the Byzantine Empire & successive Islamic caliphates; during the eighth or ninth century, the Khaganate adopted Judaism as state religion. At their height, the Khazars and their tributaries controlled much of what is today southern Russia, western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Northern Caucasus ( Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya), parts of Georgia and the Crimea.
Tengri shamanists: Here is a critical digression for those involved in this thread. Shamanism is poorly understood by most westerners. Oral traditions can accurately transmit information over thousands of years. I know this first hand from another shamanic tradition. There is also an experiential scientific component that is too alien to this group to more than allude to. (See 'Men Who Stare at Goats' for the first tentative western steps in this direction.)
The question then becomes relevant to AIPAC and the Israeli Mossad. Are these rogue elements within the nation of Israel? Do the Khazar Jews influence policy for the nation of Israel?
Who are the faces of these people in our present day? What is the link with Lee Hamilton and Zbignew Brezinski in the Obama Administration?
Simon
Anonymous Says:
State agencies and commissions are infested with "operatives". Especially in the economic development, communications and energy sectors. Check out the "qualifications" of the individual at the end of this article; ) http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/116391.html
Anonymous Says:
This is strange, too bad Mrs. Edmunds was not at post in 1993. Rare TV NEWS report about WTC bombing FBI Foreknowledge. It should be common knowledge to most that the lead investigator for the 1993 bombing was none other than Israeli citizen and future first fuhrer of our very famous prison building Black Water / Xe contracting Department of Homeland Security and Angry Chromes Afflicted Poster Boy, Michael "the jerkoff" Chertoff. Incidentally, we might note that Chertoff's 1993 partner in crime in the investigation of the Trade Center bombing affair was non other than straight laced TV poker face but never wins a big case, old Mr. Podium Prosecutor, and now newly ordained protector of the new Ken Doll in the Whore House, Patty Fitzgerald.
It might also be helpful to review a never spoken in the mainstream action against many of the small fry /11 kapos that the good citizens of San Diego went so far as to indict, including none other than, and our very famous HLS fuhrer Mike the Half-Dike Chertoff and giggly cross dressing tinsel podium queen, Rude Rudy Guiliani in 2007 for destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice related to their rolls in crime of /11.
Back on topic: I wonder, should Mrs. Edmunds drop by, if she knew or ever spoke to Coleen Rowley, and, if so, if there are any tidbits of conversation she might share with us?
Anonymous Says:
You Go Girl
Dr. Deniz briefly remembered Demos Shakarian from the story of the Boy Prophet who had warned many Armenians to flee before the massacre. Deniz had managed to get his daughter out via Turkey through Azerbaijan. Wander into the Blue Mosque with sunlight filtering through domed vaults onto jewel encrusted crowns. Have a strong Turkish coffee, equal parts grounds and sugar with a dash of hot water. Take in a sauna, and allow 200 lb behemoths to walk expertly down your spine. Spend the night with a hundred hippies, guarding your rucksack even in sleep. Walk from Istanbul along the waterfront to the train station to board for Tehran. Exotic whores would approach every youth with offer of their wares. Most passed on to meet an urgent train schedule. That was the '70's.
In the mid '80's Aram Gulezyian lived in Tucson, Arizona. His son Michael was an accomplished guitarist, playing with the likes of Leo Kopke. Aram had recorded forgotten Oud compositions evoking strong Persian influence on Armenian Christians. That was a happier time before bitter divisions between Muslim and Christian. Aram also had a sarod modified to play electronically. He foresaw, twenty years ahead of his time, the fusion of Persian and East Indian ragas. Cha har gah had the same pattern as the Hindi scale of Bhairavi.
Simeon met Aram in Tucson – two musicians drawn by their love of the mysterious East and its music. Aram had escaped Armenia with a vellum manuscript, original Coptic hymns from the Library of Alexandria. Members of the brotherhood of purity, the Ikwan es Safa, had saved this rare manuscript. Called Harmonium Mundi, or music of the spheres, they were actually six hymns to be sung during different celestial conjunctions. For thirty years, Aram had researched with eminent scholars from the New York Metropolitan Museum of Art. A famous curator, Ludloe Bull and Aram had made the final transcription. Now Aram had the transcribed manuscript, but there had been a falling out and Aram's son, Michael, had no interest in middle eastern music. Simeon was still youthful, and Aram was nearing the end of his life. Someone must take the ancient chants and pull their original intent from the Akashic Record. Khazar/tengri shaman understood the mysteries, but had become polluted when they accepted the Jewish faith. Aram charged Simeon with bringing forth music that had not been heard for 1500 years.
Years passed, and Simeon wandered about, never finding an audience, although he had once played the pieces in Sedona, Arizona beneath the sculpture of the Eye of Horus.
Dr. Deniz's daughter became enmeshed in the politics in her blood, finding her way to a position with the FBI, as a linguist translating Turkish communications. That revealed the neocon agenda for oil and control of the Middle East. Corruption, heroin, and intrigue had gathered U.S. politics within its tentacles.
When Anon the Neocon realized that 25,000 readers were following the daughter's revelations, his organization became concerned. Then the geeks in Bangalore got wind of the revelations, the whole thing threatened to go viral. Anon was charged with baiting the bloggers at 123realchange. Begin enough vitriol and the readership would quickly drop. Other explosive sites had been neutralized in this same manner.
Anon had overlooked one thing. A lot of frogs were seriously pissed off. Someone had changed the heat in the pot too quickly. The old boy had a serious problem with gas that barely allowed him to sleep at night. Simeon mailed an organ composition to Deniz's daughter of the Coptic Hymns. Her next interview was to be with Peter Lance, the author of 'Triple Cross'. she had given sworn testimony that linked Marc Grossman with Turkey. What a fitting way to begin the podcast with the Coptic Hymns evoking ancient celestial harmonies. Cellular memories in the audience would be awakened. Anon was screwed.
Anonymous Says:
Simon,
I've heard the Khazaar mentioned in discussions of the Ashkenazi. I've read a lot about the Ashkenazi and how they came to be the prominent non-semitic poster face for Jews.
We are all brainwashed. De Mille's "The Ten Commandments" gave hungry want-to-be-white-Christian families of early sixties American what they were their throbbing identity veins needed a shot of: an Ancient, Oldest of Old Testament Egypt run by white Romanesque and handsome Hungarian Pharaohs, and a just in the nick of time white Moses. Having pretended to participate in all sorts of church and temple rituals, I was always weirded out by the handsome blue eyed blond surfer locked idolatrous pictures of white America's Jesus adorning the halls of Baptist churches all over the south. I was confused – an avid read of both National Geographic and the lingerie section of the Sears catalog, and mostly for the same reason, I still read some articles – and the modern day people in Egypt and Canaan didn't look anything like the Madison Avenue shiny Jesus guy pictures on southern church walls.
Hebrews were black. Moses was black – and Jesus – despite the renderings was Egyptian – dark skin and kinky haired. Looked nothing like the Aqua Velva Santa Monica surf bum idol on the church hall wall! The guys and gals in the bible are semitic , nary a white blue eyed one among them.
The Ashkenazi missed the cruise on Noah's Arc and were not spawned from the gamete rich loins of the Iraqi, Abraham. What the Ashkenazi did do – was save their fannies through an emergency overnight conversion to Judea about the same time Islam was born, 1284 AD – or at least when the faith separated itself from it's roots in Judea and Christianity. Islam is like a hybrid religion. The Koran is the Torah! Islam kept a few Christian poets and new testament philosophers, like Jesus, but Judea did not.
Anyway, when the bright light of the torch Islam's birth almost conquered the world – they had reached and controlled Spain – one of the lands they had to cross was the lands of the Ashkenazi. The Ashkenazi were the predecessors to the very famous, though more recent celebrities, like Vlad the Impaler and Trotsky. And, the 1284 Ashkenazi were aware a very large army of dedicated Islamic warriors was approaching and and that they regarded the heathen practices of the Ashkenazi as the practices of those who had enslaved them – so the Ashkenazi had a town hall of sorts – and the topic was: What can we do to save our asses? Should we defend this place with our (quote) countrymen – should we run – what should we do?
A guy at the back – a geek of sorts – raised his hand and offered a fact: Islam regards the Jew as a spiritual brother. Maybe if we convert to Judea the warriors will not harm us?
Immediately, the town hall gathering was abuzz – and finally proposed the question: How do we convert to Judea? A wise man on the council said we don't have to convert, all we have to do is claim that we are Jews when the Islamic Army approaches, and then he added, "My nephew has some "I am Jew" T-Shirts he will let go for 50 scheckles, our an IOU at 6% compound interest.
This Islamic Warriors conquered the land the Ashkenazi lived in but did not kill anyone wearing the "I am a Jew" T-Shirts. The carnage was intense – dead dismembered bodies all over the place. The conquest of the lands of Ashkenazm in 1284 might be the first, and last recorded time in history Jews, well people claiming to be Jews, actually "stacked" bodies.
The star of David – I've heard – is a Kahzaar symbol as well.
Anonymous Says:
@Sibel, Have you ever heard the Turkish Name Yoksuloglu used? Thanks and God Bless you.
Edit_Mommies Says:
holy shit I am stupid.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
@Eric Pottenger
You ask the most important questions that need to be asked. And there are no easy answers.
What my "ideology" (to answer another of your questions) does for me – is simplify the world between those born with the political privilege of being able to openly analyze, investigate their world, and proceed to share their results – without judging their validity- and a world in which the penalty for apostasy is death (Pakistan) or for wearing trousers while being a woman 40 lashes (Sudan), or being gay – execution (Iran), or jail time for being raped (Saudi Arabia)!!! Explore there please! Go ask your questions there. Go ask if its ok to at one time freely distribute the Protocols of Zion, and on the other hand, suffer severe torture for questioning your local dictators corruption!
I am of the fervent conviction, that it is our duty, as those born with this privilege to explore the world around us – without some damned enforced interference from stone-age dogmas, to see that the rest of humanity, eventually share in this pleasure.
When everyone is born free, everyone will no doubt have opinions different from mine – and yes, they will complain about how terrible their life was – and even end up suggesting it was better under Caligula, Hitler, Stalin, and Bush…but I hope they will have the chance to investigate the world, in the same way you and I do. At present, they don't. And that's all I want. Gratitude not required.
Am I willing to sacrifice our resources for their benefit. You bet.
Sadly, that day is very far away when freedom is an equal opportunity employer. Our electorate prefers ignorance, and self-flagellation. A prescription for disaster, if there ever was one. One wonders, what kind of people were capable, at the beginning of the 20th century to muster so much interest in the genocide of Armenians in Anatolia, compared to today's Americans. Because if you read up on the massive efforts in America to raise money for the victims of the 1910s Anatolian persecutions, compared with how many care about Mrs. Edmond's deposition you'll be amazed at who lived here previously. Our ancestors abolished slavery, we cower when called to do the same – because we hate ourselves too much, are too spoiled, and/or it's somebody else- so why bother.
Mrs. Edmonds and I, agree fundamentally, that this country doesnt' do enough for freedom. Sometimes, it works against it.
Unlike her, I want it to possess a clear ideology and direction, to promote freedom. I wont cherry pick my interests- here the Kurds, here the Armenians, here the Turks.
I am interested in the overall picture.
Unfortunately, when you stop cherry-picking, the first thing you understand, is that while US foreign policy fails on two fronts – both are not equal.
Anonymous Says:
continued from Anon the Neocon-
The damage caused by malevolence on the part of the establishment, is minuscule. The damage caused by apathy, and lack of involvement, is colossal. It sounds counter-intuitive, but the evidence is clear. Take Africa. No matter what the evidence of malfeasance, it is above all a continent about which no one cares. And it shows. Look at the Congo today. 4 million dead in 8 years?
"You want me to sacrifice for THEM?"
We saw it in Somalia.
Them. Too foreign, too black…freedom – that's our privileged. I guess its "logical" to then hate yourself…ok "logic" in the most absurd sense!
And please, don't give me the – |why can't they just do it themselves if we left them alone line." Been there, done that. Was it our minuscule interference that got pygmies eaten by rapacious militias. Literally eaten!! Read about it.
-No – conspiracy theories are so much funner!
On Walter Lippmann. I think you make a mistake when reading him. You assume he had some kind of impact on our democracy.
He had insight – but not impact. You belong in a tiny minority who have heard his name. Congratulations. Yes, he is great for a debate. But I don't believe in power being held by secret, unknown little men. That would be too convenient, for those who are busy hiding their own cowardice.
On Hamas,please – how deep do one's sympathies have to lie to be blind? You are talking about a terrorist organization, which is really better known as the Muslim Brotherhood. Do you really need me to review history for you?
Then I'll get called a "teacher" lecturing to schoolchildren!
If you believe they've been banned in the Maghreb because they were nice guys that could win an election – I've got a bridge to sell you.
@whoever
yes, I am a bit more unhappy with Mrs. Edmonds than previously. Like I said, I think the credibility is wearing thin. It is easy to get carried away by the group-think and bias, but I don't like claims being made as personal claims, when they really come from other sources and its clear to some of us where they come from.
Mrs. Edmonds has now gone that route for nearly everything published here.
I am simply having doubts, as to the nature of her information – and I can be rightfully peeved, for having fell for it.
There is nothing incriminating in what she says. I don't like the rotating door of politics, but it's not illegal.
The Turks are members of NATO, and we support their ascension to the EU. That has nothing to do with bribery. That is a position which stems from geostrategic reality. To reduce our relationship to one of criminality (granted some takes place), is myopic. It's fundamentally …sorry – but its ignorant.
Anonymous Says:
For all: MAINE DEFINITION OF LEGAL REPRESSION, Respectfully and Sincerely, Grandpa. http://www.courts.state.me.us/court_info/opinions/documents/97me79al.htm
Anonymous Says:
Novak fingered former Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, who the columnist described as not having a political ax to grind, as the primary source for his July 14, 2003, column that first publicly identified Plame, who was the wife of administration critic Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador.
This was noted in his passing. Sibel's revelation of Marc Grossman remains unaddressed.
Simon
Anonymous Says:
Anonymous @ Aug 18 11:49
You need to speak from the heart.
Your posts are well worded – perhaps overly so – big worded – and lack usable context. It's almost as if your pretending to have a position or view point. It's hard to communicate a point of view of you don't have one.
You say things like without some damned enforced interference from stone-age dogmas …
And I am asking myself, "What the f*ck is is a stone age dogma?". A high school English or Civics teacher might categorize that statement as a "glitter generality" , sounds fancy but offers little to no real information. It's like speaking without saying anything.
I can visualize stone age dogma as what some refer to as a dominion heresy. For example, a cult or religion that claims it is "gods only chosen people". Or the ruthless murder for 100's of thousands innocents by a fascist state justifying genocide with the false claim of non existent WMD. Murder, even mass murder, based on a lie is murder in the first degree. A capital crime.
Let's play and say your friends worked for a bullet factory, and your employers were paying you to protect them. Your friends in the bullet factory, who gave you a lot of money to convince your employers that you would do a good job call in the favor and demand they do something so they can make money selling bullets. The bullet factory sends you an adviser. He fabricates a thin story and a newspaper, or TV channel, that one his buddies has a chair on the board of directors as well being the top dog at another bullet factory that wants free money from your employers. And by fate, act of god or miracle, this buddy also has a brother that's a trained killer, a policeman and will move into the bullet factory business when he retires from the police force so his brother can get closer to all your employers money by landing a job to manage all the money your employers have trusted you with to cover the budget for the services you promised to deliver.
The bullet factory adviser says – look your employers are stupid. Just tell them your neighbor has a bad attitude, a lot of guns and is planning to kill your employers.
And so you do. After you kill your neighbors, his family, set the neighborhood on fire and kill others that were not your target, an independent finder of facts goes into your neighbors burned downed house.
After all the bullets you purchased with the money entrusted you by your employers to payoff the favors from your bullet factory buddies that were used destroy your neighbor's house, the independent finder of fact searches through the stink rising from a gooey layer of syrupy smelly piss puss blood shit and decay that used to be a family coating the floors and wall and discovers that, in fact, your neighbor never had any weapons to harm you and never intended to harm you.
Who would be the facilitator of stone age dogma? You, your employers that trusted you with the money so you could accidentally turn an innocent neighborhood into a scab, the ambitious and greedy bullet factory guys you owed favors to – or the puss of an innocent family your repayment of a favor caused.
You talk of conspiracy – tell me – what is a conspiracy – what are the facts as you see them – what are the conspiracy theories that trouble your restless sleep and keep your pretense at intellectualism glued to the mirror reflected through the haze of your posts.
A string of 101 properly pentameter-ed syllables from a thesaurus is no substitution for the heart or facts.
Quit with the smarty pants stuff. Don't let false vanity, thin esteem or dogma blind you forever.
Peace
Eric Pottenger Says:
@anon the neocon
I appreciate the careful and respectful way you addressed my questions.
Unfortunately I haven't the time, at present, to give your answers a full response…hopefully later.
I just wanted to let you know that I'm reading Walter Lippmann, not because I have somehow discovered that he was a member of a secret cabal of the power elite, but because other researchers are suggesting this; and because he did, in fact, attend the Paris Peace Conference on behalf of the Wilson Administration; because he did, in fact, outline the features of the League of Nations many years in advance of Wilson's proposal; because he was, in fact, a high-profile member of the Committee of Public Information (Creel Commission)…and that his work on the media's role in modern democracy and governing appears to be foundational, prophetic, and very honest in its betrayal to democratic sentiments.
That is why I'm reading Lippmann. In other words, I'm not taking his supposed role as absolute. I'm curious about his role. He just happens to be one of many historical personalities that I must reckon with before moving on.
I will mention before parting that you share a pose with many otherwise intelligent persons, in that you disparage any notion of conspiracy, largely without sufficient justification. why is that? I agree that many conspiracy theories resemble intellectual pole-vaulters, making hasty judgments before all the facts are in. but this observation is more an indictment against the researchers, not on the phenomenon of conspiracies actually existing.
does that make sense?
as for apathy, isn't it (refreshingly) the conspiracy theorists in our midst that have challenged the apathy of our numbers?; have actually developed opinions to defend, which is more than most can say? to my mind, some are perhaps too emotional; some hold opinions that stray too far from empirical fact. but overall, I enjoy their contributions, and I learn from them. a good conspiracy challenges my comfortable worldview, and sometimes what I'm reading seems close to the truth.
I'm curious to know your perspectives.
Anonymous Says:
Definition is a wondrous thing. ignorance comes in many guises, obviously. Having to digest a world view that has Woodward a 'pleasure to read' and perle and kristol held in awe for "life effort to defend democracy" require magnitude 10 definitional shifts last seen turning "explosion" into "collapse".
An imperial democracy. You need a vaccine to get it in ya. We are saving the people of the world from their barbarism.com. perle. bolton. negroponte. bush. Reapers, predators cheney and a shotgun into the face of the commi….sorry, terrorists, with right on our side.Because we are the bright boys. We will bring you freedom[tm] and democracy.co. Collateral damage notwithstanding. Just sign here.
Anonymous Says:
The strange thing about the Plame affair and Joe Wilson is how Valerie was made into some sort of iconic here – when in reality she was a paid hack for CIA – Carters CIA Boss said the mission of the CIA was "To buy Treason".
How many dead and limping non de plume's (forst time I ever used that phrase – i feel so sophisticated!) lay in the wake of her treacherous vain career. Then there's hubby Joe – sure – he should be lauded for outing the Niger Yellow Cake 3 months to late. But that's not all from Sham Wow Joe – he was George 1's assistant to the US ambassador to Iraq, prior to the Saddam's trusting mistake, and was in the room when the US Ambassador gave Saddam the green light to take bait and attack Kuwait for the greatest real time murder boom and blood plunder evening TV viewers could ever hope to see – like how many of considered that there were pregnant Iraqi women caught in the cross hairs of a smart bombs video laser sight that were disemboweled and instantly aborted when the best the west could kill with landed burning fragmenting and vaporizing in their wombs?
We know what DU is doing to the wombs of the wives of American soldiers – but there's more important stuff to consider – like who will be queen of the ball on American Idol or – how cool our posts on boiling frogs are – right?
Eric have you and Noeconmon ever read Benjamin Freedman's 1961 speech? You just spoke of Creel – Freedman was at Versailles. There's other stuff about Woodrow Wilson, the Declaration of Balfour and it's relation to the Federal Reserve:
The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They [Zionists] told England: “We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war.”
In other words, they made this deal: “We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay us is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.”
Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain — that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine — should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war.
And Freedman is a Jew – but he knows the difference between the dominion heresy of Zionism and Judea …
Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. And they were no good.
Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.
The Zionists in London sent these cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis: “Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work, and you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." And that did happen. That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room.
Remarkable speech – there are audios of it too.
Challenge – who is the author of this quote:
A Zionist is not a Jew. A Zionist is a Zionist, period.
Metemneurosis Says:
@Anon the Neocon
Unlike her, I want it to possess a clear ideology and direction, to promote freedom. I wont cherry pick my interests- here the Kurds, here the Armenians, here the Turks.
I'm sure this must just be disingenuous. I find it hard to believe that you're incapable of seeing the difference is really one of moral commitments. Ms. Edmonds simply believes there are limits to the things one can do to promote freedom and democracy. Maybe you'd draw the line at raping 6 year olds maybe you wouldn't. I'm not suggesting there'll ever be a situation where this could ever actually help promote freedom or democracy I'm just trying to think of something you might actually balk at. Ms. Edmonds on the other hand perhaps draws the line at supporting cold-blooded killers in Afghanistan or making deals with drug dealers. This is not attributable to ignorance of the theoretical background of foreign policy. To suggest that it is is just ridiculous. Maybe it's a defense mechanism on your part. Maybe you feel it would be easier to persuade people if you could make them think it was some matter of fact they were missing instead.
The Turks are members of NATO, and we support their ascension to the EU. That has nothing to do with bribery.
I don't remember anyone ever suggesting we should be supporting the Turks. And what Ms. Edmonds did report definitely has to do with bribery, given that it was bribery.
As for Hamas here you're just being inconsistent. Haven't you been telling us all along to stop worrying about how bad the people are we're making deals with and just try to see the big picture. Making deals with drug dealers was the lesser of two evils. It was either that or the Soviets would win. I never said Hamas was innocent, I asked for evidence they threatened to undermine democracy in Gaza. I'm suggesting, in line with your previous ideas, that we should recognize Hamas now to help make a peace deal. And as for 'terrorist organization' if we were 'rigorous' about how we applied this word it would apply to the Israeli government and the IDF a thousand times over relative to Hamas. Even Yitzak Rabin, the best of their leaders so far, participated in the '48 massacres.
Metemneurosis Says:
I meant to write "I don't remember anyone suggesting we shouldn't be supporting the Turks.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
I am sorry if someone finds my diction pretensions or fake. Should I rhyme?
Consider if a failure on my part – to meet your needs. But then, I am not trying to sell you anything – I have no secret info, I was not at the FBI, and I am quite pleased to be cogent.
Walter Lippmann. On behalf of the Wilson administration?
Ok – so what have you read about the Wilson administration? There were a lot of people there with Mr. Wilson, at Versailles – and a lot of people with other people. Lippmann didn't write the 14 points, and its ideas, certainly preceded Lippmann by about a hundred years. But then, I assume, you have not read about that? My apologies, if I am wrong.
Wilson happened to be among the most ignorant statesmen to ever walk the earth. When referring to Slovenia, he spoke of Slovakia which reminds everyone of someone.
I am perfectly willing, to admit conspiracy. It is after all, statutorily defined – and the currency of unmerited success.
Lippmann indeed, was not entirely marginal. With time he learned to appreciate the system – appreciated his errors – appreciated his elitist status.
He was part of the elite, and he contributed, as its part to our nation's history. But I think Nathan Glazer and Margarette Mead, had more influence than Mr. Lippmann, on American culture. Would you be interested in reading either?
Why not?
One of them is Jewish – the other a Quaker. Since Lloyds, and Barrings, and Barclays were all Quaker firms – get the picture?
Hofstadter's article on Conspiracy/Paranoia, is a must for anyone guided in their understanding of current and past events by knowledge of the particular.
I evaluated Lippmann in connection with his cynical observations, presented as something which by their implied veracity undermined pro-Democracy arguments.
I submit to you – that what needs to be debated, is not conspiracy. Because the debate will be short as anyone informed is liable to leave the premise – but how we use our limited foreign policy resources to best ameliorate others' fortune. And that, I am afraid, is a debate to which no one will show, except perhaps a somewhat exclusive crowd – especially if there will be policy implications.
Vapid ramblings about bullet factories, syllabic meter, and intellectualism glued to the mirror reflected through the haze of your posts amount to little more than insecurity speaking its name – and a sort of name-calling. Tu quoque – I'll whine in response. Like any normal human being, I too, have my insecurities. But responding with a "you too" would mean "if you did it, so can I" – but here you are alone.
Sorry – the terms "imperialist democracy" is the opposite of hazy.
But then, if you cannot correctly read what the word "dogma" implies, you fall into the very trap exemplified. A miscomprehension here, a switcheroo of meaning there, and voila – isn't a bullet factory engaged in some stone-age dogma?
How about this – can you tell the difference between dogma and pragmatism? Between opportunism, and principle?
Once you get there- middle school (?) – then take a nice summer trip to Pakistan, and bring your little Bible into a mosque (because you have no pockets, and no backpack). Once you are back – share your experience. Or better, just tell them you are an atheist, looking at traditional culture.
Good luck.
But hey, the bandages will bring you around to simple language comprehension. Frankly, which part of "executed for apostasy" don't you get? Should the term "Moral equivalence" be put on IQ tests?
I hope that's arrogant enough for you?
Anonymous Says:
Anonymous @ Aug 20 2009 8:05
You didn't follow the bullet factory links – hegemony – hubris – are the fuel for dogma.
Fascism is conformity and crony-sism – a mafia – a crime family.
Those links led to the Kimmet Brothers – Robert Kimmit who advised Carter to attack Iran – when Carter could have flown to Iran and picked up the hostages in one day – ie no crisis – no dogma issue – but – instead the hostage fiasco led to the sleeper peeper mysto cristo Reagan – whom Robert Kimmit went to work for after he assured, as Carters Military Afairs adviser, that Carter would loose.
Early in 2001 Bobby Kimmit, while he was the CEO for United Defense, also became the foreign policy editorial director at AOL -Time Warner (CNN) – the mainstream propaganda machine – how many bullet factory bosses run the media – every major outlet has their boards flooded with them.
General Mark Kimmit, Bobby's brother, was in charge of Abu Gharib when those photos released, and while Bobby was still the foreign news director at CNN and boss at United Defense.
Let's see if you're smart as a sea cucumber: Why were those photos released – to force a national apology – NO – to change US policy – NO – to arrest a few bad apple underlings – NO – those photos were released for one reason and one reason only – to inflame Islam – to perpetuate the genocide dogma of our fascist government and to test the limits of our compliance and conformity.
For his part in Abu Gharib – Mark Kimmit was promoted to a nice job in the pentagon – instead of being fired for dereliction of duty – where he polishes the top brass knobs. Robert Kimmit for doing his part at the propaganda machine and the bullet factory was appointed to assistant secretary of the treasury.
I'll leave it to others to conclude the who is a twitless mindless dweeb. You still say words without context – you're a flesh-o-thesaurus, a dinosaur of dogma complacency and conformity – who speaks and says nothing – an Authur Mckinsey. You are what you claim to be against – you are both Dorian and the portrait you can't bear to view, You hide your fears behind words that carry no meaning. There's nothing to fear my friend – everything has a beginning – everything has an end – and there is no escape.
Eric Pottenger Says:
@ anon the neocon
please, let's forget the whole Lippmann exchange. if you read my previous posts more closely, you'll soon discover that I'm INVESTIGATING these people, these ideas, this period, and so on. I'm not gonna stop in the middle of my research (or, rather, at the beginning) and get directed around by some phantom-like suggestions that come from a voice that I don't even agree with.
here's your style: "read margaret meade" "and why not?"
here's my style: before you make one more suggestion, one more comment; before you try and "help" one more person, try listening to David Bowie's Hunky Dory about a thousand times. try listening to bob dylan's "hard rain" ten thousand times. or sam cooke's gospel songs. or janis joplin.
or perhaps you like jazz? pharoah sanders is good. sun ra helps. john coltrane is powerful. I especially like the song "wise one" on the album Crescent. you should turn off the computer. stop trying to impress the group that you've thought through all their mistaken impressions.
are you really here to "help'?
it seems you think so. is that right? you want to "help" people? you want to "help" me? you want to help the Pygmies?
God bless you child!
if you live in the United States, you must certainly know that we have our own problems as well. you must know that our culture isn't "probably diseased" but that it "is diseased." I'm not crying about it, merely to draw your attention to my suffering soul. I'm merely stating my subjective observation, because, well, I live here.
just what do you hope to export to the Pygmies? our healthy democracy? our famous apathy? our despicable complicity?
Eric Pottenger Says:
@ anon the neocon cont.
you were the one to mention apathy, weren't you? don't you think that you should come around to understanding this apathy, instead of merely BLAMING the world's problems upon it? and so WHY do you think Americans are apathetic? this is a challenging question, not an easy answer… but do you ask it? are you sincere in your pursuit of this answer? to you think about solving it in creative terms?
it seems that your worldview is based upon a compromise with this apathy, and with other overriding limitations. have you ever challenged that? it's perfectly fine to say, as kissinger says, that "peace" is a strategic balancing act between powers at war. but the proof is always in the pudding, isn't it. is Kissinger correct? is Kissinger an "interested" party? is Kissinger intellectually lazy? is Kissinger the same man that famously said, "Power is the greatest aphrodesiac." yes, I think it was Kissinger that said that. and do I want to pin my entire worldview on a man like this? or upon someone LIKE Kissinger?
to each their own.
one thing about Lippmann (and I'll make this observation about a number of powerful individuals, social thinkers, scientists, etc.–one thing that they all have in common is that, although many of them are brilliant; although many of them discover "truths" about people, about society, about behavior–yet it seems their energy always wanes whenever it comes to CREATING POSSIBILITIES. yes, they always seem to dismiss possibilities under the rug of an oppressive "human nature."
that's Lippmann. is it meade? or nathan glazer? or anyone else you think brilliant; that you're suggesting I read?
like I urged you to do: try listening to the musicians I listed above. lose yourself for awhile. are you near a clean river? go throw yourself in. spend a night star gazing. lay back on the earth, bend your head back, feel the curve of the universe behind you. feel the earth rotate underneath you.
you claimed to "simplify" your worldview, perhaps to better use it as a tool. it should be clear by now that I think you could use an infusion of the universal love force in your thinking, but that's merely my opinion. perhaps you have thought too much, neocon, forgotten what all this thinking is directed toward?
whatever the case, ask yourself one more time just what it is that America can offer the Pygmies, and why. try thinking "foundational."
Styve Says:
Comment deleted
This post has been removed by the author.
August 13, 2009 9:28 PM
———-
Comment deleted
This post has been removed by the author.
August 14, 2009 12:22 AM
———-
Sibel…kinda surprised that the two posts I put up on the thread were removed. The topic was about Schakowsky's son-in-law drowning off Mexico while snorkeling. Your response was that her husband should be someone of interest in the investigation.
I just went back to look at the thread, and my comments and your responses were not there anymore. Another connection that came to mind is the Blackwater news surge of late.
Thanks,
Styve
Styve Says:
Sorry, I was mistaken re what thread my posts were/are on. They are still there. Nevermind…
S
Anonymous Says:
News with a Turkish Hair Twister
GERMANY: Terror Plot Emerges as Secret Service Game
(I wonder how many other Terror plots fall into that category – perhaps more to come – anyway …..)
First – from the mouths of the media we're told …
BERLIN, Aug 20 (IPS) – It was announced as a terror plot busted. German police had captured three young Muslim men in the small village Medebach-Oberschledor, …
The three men, and a fourth, who was captured a year later in Turkey, wanted to bomb U.S. military and other facilities in Germany, and …. their plans were in retaliation against the U.S. war on 'Islamic terrorism', especially the abuse of hundreds of Muslims detained at Guantanamo prison. German authorities and the media dubbed the four men 'the Sauerland group', in reference to the region where they were captured.
Whoa – that's scary – Young Muslim Males and more (Eeegads) Jihad dogma – honey – get out the radiation … errr – anti Hydrogen Peroxide suits …. but then we learned …
But now, the case has ceased to be "the serious terrorist threat" … It is now a mysterious puzzle of secret service games, prosecutors' alarmism spread by the media,… the supposedly dangerous group members have emerged as no more than some muddle-heads. They had no links whatsoever to international Islamic terror groups.
Whoooops – I want my Orange Alert Back – it feels so . so . like being a Viagra drenched Anti Dogmatic Mericon … shit – just a bunch of low iodine muggles making the 6 o'clock News in Munich … I guess Mericon Idol was in reruns.
Moreover, the fifth member of the group, yet to be captured, has been described as a Turkish national known only as Mevlut K. He now appears as an informer of the Turkish national intelligence organisation (MIT, after its Turkish name). He was the key figure in the plot, according to confessions by other members of the Sauerland group … 'K' had procured 26 fuses for the bombs the group was supposed to make, Selek said. Only, the fuses were useless … "We knew that Mevlut had links with several secret services," Gelowicz told the court. … despite warnings that the German police were constantly informed of their actions, the four men continued their preparations until they were captured.
Shit – shit – shit – if they could have only gone through with it we could aborted the fetuses of young Islamic mothers with tactical nukes all over Iran – now that's TV worth watching!
You know how to tell you live in a fascist pretense of a republic – when psychiatrist prescribe internment for 911 Truth Activists. Will the very famous Robert Novak of the NYT be interned as well for saying Security experts and airline officials agree privately that the simultaneous hijacking of four jetliners was an "inside job," probably indicating complicity beyond malfeasance. At least we'll waste away in FEMA camps that in some strange way are beginning to look more and more justified. Maybe Tom Ridge will be there too due to words let loose with a slip of his thin slobbery lips (the corner of his mouth looks just like Barney Franks mouth – Dubby called him Frank Burns – what is that all about?) and said I was pressured to raise terror alert to help Bush Win.
I'll see ya in camp folks – the revolution has begun.
Anonymous Says:
Eric – you'll love this Rollin `n Tumblin cover – very naughty.
Anonymous Says:
Derkha Derkha Dogma Jihad
Anonymous Says:
White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs is Reviewing 9/11 Thermite Paper !
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
@Anonymous
-would sure be nice if you had a tag, since the Anonymity is multiplying!
you say that the torture photos were released to inflame Islam
And you are rather convinced of it. No doubt eh? Hubris, hegemony, dogma anyone? Oh no – watch out, another anonymous user looking to chop-off a crooks hand. Only in this case, I am the "crook" because I don't fit your view, and the chopping is done through one gigantic ad hominem attack which is devoid of a single falsifiable argument. Wait, did I just commit "moral equivalency"!? Oh oh – I must be getting smarter.
Well – leaving aside the issue of torture, and the Iraq invasion, and a slew of other moral questions – why were those photos "released"?
First, you'd be hard up proving they enjoyed any kind of "release". Second, their impact on our morale, and that of the enemy, would reveal that any plausible "release" was either done by amateurs, or people deliberately bent on hurting Americans.
You worry about the Kimmitt family. Fabulous. And your issue with them is? That they produced three individuals who had brilliantly served their country?
You may not like bullet factories, but as the saying goes – he who doesn't pay his army, will pay to the army of the invader. There are always those who prefer the invader, because from afar, he is too sexy, while their immediate surroundings remind them of their impotence.
Regardless of your previous praise ,your prose far surpasses my own…but it is a distraction. Try staying focused, if you actually want me to say something – otherwise, I'll just consider it a provocation.
@Eric Pottenger
WHY do you think Americans are apathetic?
Go ahead, give me your reason?
Or shall I guess? You are implying that since our elites, political and intellectual are effete, and not into Zander's Art of the Possible they end up leeching off society, and the result is lack of "motivation" among the electorate?
Ok, so my question is loaded. Still. Am I right/wrong?
are you really here to "help'?
Why are you here, if I may ask? Am I allowed to be here, only if I am here to "help", or if I agree with everyone. Must I say "oh Mrs. Edmonds, you are great" (I already did, by the way) to be authorized? DO I need to justify my presence? In which case, I'd ask for justification from everyone else…you know what, I'll tell you why I am here, in the end of my comment…
Apparently I don't sound very human. Naturally I need to listen to music. Something about me, gives the impression I am atonal, achromatic…do you imagine me as Dr. Strangelove?
So effectively, you are blaming Lippmann and ilk for being what – cynical?
I mentioned Glazer and Mead only because I suspect that reading Lippmann is never done in good faith, or from an informed perspective. It's either those bent on finding conspiracy (and you introduced that term), or those cynical enough to read his earlier works.
Anonymous Says:
Mead and Glazer both look at society from a totally different perspective, and have had profound influence on our self-perception. That was why I suggested them. Lippmann, for all his brilliance, died with his death. So there is no durable impact. Which is not to distract from his immediate interwar impact.
Mr. Kissinger, my dear – parent? (since I am presumably your "child" – or were you referring to some naivete on my part) – was dedicated to pragmatism. Certain anonymous commentators on this blog, tend to confuse terms, and/or see little utility n meaning as such, unless it has to do with bullet factories (if a bullet cuts you down, and no one is there to hear it – did it cut you down?) – so the distinction may be lost on them.
As for aphrodisiacs and power. If indeed Mr. Kissinger spoke those words, I dare say, he was proof to the contrary. I'd presume that most men seek power, precisely because of their succeptibility to aphrodisiacs.
Or to be more precise, our original sin, is our depravity. We don't need the power to have it, we just need the power to satisfy it. But – you are speaking of the depraved – not dogma, politics, or democracy – just good'ol human nature.
@Metemneurosis
I think we both like rigor.
Hamas cannot be compared to the Israeli government. I see no parallel whatsoever.
Terrorism is defined by its means, not source. The IDF has never resorted to a single act of terrorism that I can recall.
Per Hamas, are you insisting that I provide you a timeline of its terrorist activity?
What are you insistint? Are you stomping that I accept some faint resemblence between IDF and Hamas tactics?
As for degrees of difference between myself and Mrs. Edmonds.
I am not sure what the difference is, if there is one. Just like her, I want my democracy, to always remain a democracy. I don't need no corrupt politicians, nor deals with drug dealers, or terrorists. I don't know, what the difference is.
What I do know, is that a knowledge of foreign policy, history, and theory, is indispensable for anyone attempting to understand the modern world. Without such knowledge, you mis-attribute causality.
Either the earth is a sphere, or its a square. You can't have both, and you can't know it, without empirical methods. If you want to circumnavigate it – you're forced to bet its round.
I am just as worried about Turkish influence as Mrs. Edmonds – but I am afraid she has reduced this issue to a joke – at least the way I see it.
Half of what she ascribes to the Turkish lobby, is a kind of legal extortion practiced by certain Congressman. They know damn well that someone will pay, and they solicit their vote. But this is in the realm of political science, not FBI wiretapping.
Look- I want to be clear – I don't understand anyone, who is against democracy. You are all here reading Mrs. Edmonds, because you are free women and men. Get off your high-horses, and admit for once, that you are privileged. If you do sense tension on my part – well, that is its source. I hear a bunch of spoiled ungrateful self-haters. And it makes me sick. I try to be nice about it – but there – you have proof that I am just as human as you. Just say it damn it, say it "we are privileged" and "yes, it isn't perfect, but I am privileged to be born into the product of my ancestors blood and sweat"
And if you can't say it – well, you're the reason the world is the way it is. There is no "creativity" where there is no appreciation. Don't blame Kimmitt – blame your nihilistic self.
Metemneurosis Says:
@ Anon the Neocon
The parallel between Hamas and the Israeli government is simple they both target civilians. In the past year Hamas killed 24 Israeli's of which at least 14 were military and 9 of those were during Cast Lead inside Gaza. In other words those 9 were done in completely legal self defense. On the other hand Israel killed at least 1,4000 civilians. Like shooting fish in a barrel. I can believe as many as a hundred maybe two hundred tops were unintended casualties. But I'm not naive and neither are you. Israel targeted all kinds of buildings it had no reason to target knowing civilians were nearby or in them. They shot people then waited for ambulances to come and shot the paramedics. Even their own soldiers are attesting to war crimes. Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians and since even before 48 has had a consistent policy of economic and psychological terror as well as violence against the Palestinian population. The testimony of Israel's own soldiers, the UN and every respectable humanitarian group for decades attests to this. If that's not terror what is? The population of Gaza is slowly starving, they don't have enough fuel for power. Any person who has even the slightest sense knows that the entire purpose of this, the whole reason Israel refuses to come to the table to discuss peace, the whole reason they howl with glee when Hamas (whom they virtually created by funding the most militant people they could find to counter the PLO) fires rockets into Israel is because they hope to eventually make life so miserable for the Palestinians that they will emigrate elsewhere or that Jordan and Egypt will agree to take them off their hands so that all the land can be settled by racist Jewish zealots. At least they hope to do that with whatever Palestinians they don't manage to slaughter or imprison between now and then.
I never asked for proof that Hamas is a terrorist organization. I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing your contention that they pose a threat to future democratic processes in Gaza. I'm sure you must have understood that the first time I wrote it.
What I do know, is that a knowledge of foreign policy, history, and theory, is indispensable for anyone attempting to understand the modern world. Without such knowledge, you mis-attribute causality.
I definitely agree it helps immensely. Nothing to do with my point.
As for whether our congressmen are extorting funds legally from foreign lobbies as you suggest. Even if this were true 1) if how they're voting is affected by this game it's definitely wrong and undermines what should be a DEMOCRATIC process. 2) Maybe it shouldn't be legal, and thus it's still worth exposing and talking about.
Against democracy? No one here has said they're against democracy. If you're for 'rigor' try avoiding these kinds of rhetorical jabs.
Democracy is good because it's the type of government that has done the best job so far at protecting people from oppression by government. It's a means to an enjoyable life. It's not the end all be all. The enjoyable and meaningful life is the end all. I'm for democracy I'm just not for ending a bunch of peoples lives unnecessarily and against their will or torturing them unnecessarily to get it. I see no reason to believe there aren't ways to promote democracy that don't require this. And I'm also of the mind that in some cases less than democracy for twenty years or with a slow progress toward democracy can be a much less painful way to achieve that end.
Metemneurosis Says:
As for whether I'm spoiled and privileged, please don't stoop to this ridiculous republican tactic. Criticizing American policy is part of what it means to be an American. But while were on it, yes I do value the freedoms I still have in this country. I also value the ones I still have in practice if no legally anymore, like the sixth amendment. That's why I'm here. And yes I am spoiled and privileged. Relative to many other parts of the world most Americans are. I could for instance have been born an Arab in Israel.
If you're so worried about democracy I'd like to see you on our side regarding the assault on our civil liberties here in our democracy.
Anonymous Says:
Dear Anonymous Aug 21 2009 12:51
Love your matzo balls! Where to begin – where to begin …. aahhh … here's a spot …
Wait, did I just commit "moral equivalency"!
A recent study as shown when a Duckbill Thesaurus spends too much time praising his reflection in a mirror with the disclaimer, "objects appear larger than they are" often suffer from a unique form of dementia whereby they easily, sometimes purposely, confuse "moral equivalency" with "moral illiteracy". These cases are under review, but current therapies, like coddling and snickering out of view are recommended until the big padded FEMA playpens arrive.
But most of all – I loved you're very clever allegorical call to change Charles Mansion's status from mass murderer to saint with a very splendid, yet not too unexpected bit-o-masturbation with words by referring to the genocidal war profiteering Kimmit Klux Klan with this gem of iambic: That they produced three individuals who had brilliantly served their country?
For a wet dream: That is dry indeed!
PS
You should handout coupons with each post!!
acabtaxi Says:
Sibel my name is Randy Albert and I just want to tell you that you are an inspiration to all of us that have been stepped on by big brother. I was talking to Janice with the 911 Truth Commission about your meeting on August 9th and we were both very impressed by what you had to say. I have ran a taxi service in Elk City, Oklahoma for ten years and many bad things have happened to me for looking into local, state, and federal corruption. I have had my phones tampered with and many calls have been blocked to destroy my business. I have had problems threw seventeen different carriers including land line and cellular. I have a very shocking story to share with you and if you can spare a few minutes please e-mail me at insanityexpress8212222@gmail.com
Anonymous Says:
Anon the-X(?) Neocon-
Israel has never targeted civilians. This is a "Blood Libel". Collateral damage is the correct word. And the Incessant need to reject "collateral damage" as a useful term, is pathological of militant pacifists (oxymoron?)
A terrorist group is defined by the deliberate usage of asymmetric warfare against civilian populations.
I don't know who is naive – but believe you me – war is never pretty. Israel went after Hamas in Gaza, and Hamas made sure the Palestinian people bled.
I am not defending all and every action of the IDF – soldiers are soldiers, and never in history was there an army which didn't have its handful of idiots. The proper name for them is sadists, or loose-cannons. And blaming the military context is like blaming the air for our respiration.
A terrorist organizations such as Hamas, by definition cannot ever enjoy the status of the security forces of an armed state, controlled by a people's representatives, and granted international legitimacy.
Hamas functions like the mob of the 20-30s – they rig their districts under the barrel of a gun and sell the ballot to themselves! (to answer your "threat to democracy" idea)
Hamas and its Arab allies- not the IDF – proceeds to terrorize Palestinians into submission – like the Red Terror of 1918 – and sacrifice them like lamb for the sake of Al-Dawa.
You are stating that the state of Israel has had as policy, terrorizing and destroying the "Palestinian People". I do not agree with this. You no doubt, also subscribe to the equation of Zionism = Racism. This is pure anti-Semitism.
In either case, you are not describing terrorism, but terrror. Any asymmetry, will produce endless anecdotes to back up your accusation of "terrorizing."
Anyone who "looks" poor or like a "victim" – you will accept as a victim. He who cries loud enough, is the one most hurt.
I question this logic.
No one here has said they're against democracy. is a patently false statement.
Let's remain rigorous please.
I first and foremost speak of "democracy" in relation to the one you all enjoy!
Anonymous Says:
Look, either you support the government in removing dictators, or you defend the dictators. Most of you have made the illogical and ruinous decision to go with the later – because of your distrust of the former. You are then mislead by the likes of Edmonds and Democracy Now, to obsesses over our imperfections, while women are forced to sell food for sex in a country where all of NATO cannot be bothered to do much – because our electorates don't give a damn about an Afghani woman – they are too busy fretting over their damned Affirmative Action.
It is thanks to your blindness, that our country has often ended up working with dictators. Since you don't appreciate what you have – not one of you can answer my question about sharing it with others. And you wonder that our elites work with Saudi Arabia, China, and other rot of the world. Who's to show them, that American's are in the least bothered? And when they are bothered, its on the basis of some inane pathology, amorphous bags of resentments against Kennedy and Nixon. They'd rather sling guns to a health care debate, than read up on world history. It's ludicrous.
Foreign Policy makers know that most American's could care less about Africa, and they are not going to risk our security for a bunch of incoherent clap-trap.
As brilliant and courageous Mrs. Edmonds may be, she is fundamentally wrong. She has no experience of democracy, and every limitation appears as "undemocratic". She is then socialized into the ungrateful/alienated anti-system community, which reinforces her ideas – and she in turn reinforces yours, through a lack of professionalism.
She mis-attributes intentions and causality in the system, because she is privileged enough to let her arrogant assumptions about what she heard and saw, run amok. In our country, since we are a democracy, she can say what ever she believes.
You guys would be the first I am sure to defend a system in which the likes of Mrs. Edmonds would disappear for the sake of defending against destabilization from Uncle Sam. If Uncle Sam dared to take her equivalent say in Iran – and try to help her – you already made your positions clear.
Let me sum up the mindset here – we're all victims of repressions…and if you dare say we are not – you forget that its our privilege to pretend we are.
Hence you caricature me as a Mafioso, heartless thug, and "dogmatic" maniac.
Obviously – I burst your spoilt bubble.
Hey – if that's what too much democracy does to the brain, then I give up right now. You are right. We better think and pause before we spread this rot. Hey, if it's not perfect, and not a utopia – then we prefer Hell!
Kingfisher Says:
"Anyone who "looks" poor or like a "victim" – you will accept as a victim. He who cries loud enough, is the one most hurt.
I question this logic."
Pot, meet kettle. As a supporter of Israel are you really going to challenge others about playing the victim card?
Kingfisher Says:
"You are then mislead by the likes of Edmonds and Democracy Now, to obsesses over our imperfections, while women are forced to sell food for sex in a country where all of NATO cannot be bothered to do much"
Please tell where this wonderful country is where women will provide you a full meal in exchange for you having sex with them!
Kingfisher Says:
"Look, either you support the government in removing dictators, or you defend the dictators."
No, that’s a false dichotomy. As a realist I am inclined to support dictators and strongmen for the purposes of stability or them being conductive to our national interests; that does not necessarily mean that I don’t abhor their conduct. They may be an SOB, but they can be our SOB.
You confuse your personal disgust for dictators, with a moral disgust for backing dictators. Coincidentally this is the same thing the antiwar liberals that you so bemoan do: they confuse their personal disgust at the violence of war, with a moral disgust for any war.
"It is thanks to your blindness, that our country has often ended up working with dictators. Since you don't appreciate what you have – not one of you can answer my question about sharing it with others."
I appreciate fully what we have, so I would rather not mortgage it to finance the cost of spreading it to others.
Others can share in it by coming to our country and joining our tribe. This we can reasonably ensure, and can be certain they value it as much as we do because it requires a significant effort on their part. Going around “spreading freedom” to the world ensures that people will not value it. People do not value things that they are just given without having put any effort into.
Metemneurosis Says:
@Anon the Neocon
I see now that you've been put on the defensive you're reverting to the typical strategy of crying anti-semitism. In this regard I'd simply like to point out that the most anti-semitic country on earth is Israel. (psst Arabs are Semites) In an earlier agreement Israel signed with the Palestinians (I forget which one and it doesn't really matter) Gaza was given rights to the natural resources up to 20 miles off it's coast. This included fishing rights. Israel for the last 10 years or so has consistently pushed this back by arresting, firing water canons at, and shooting and killing fishermen who come out farther than they want. This now happens if they get more than a mile off shore. This is just the most blatant example of targeting civilians. I could go through a lot more. But I get the feeling you wouldn't accept any of them.
Israel's propaganda wing (public relations if you will) is the best in the world. They are certainly masters at plausible deniability of guilt. We weren't trying to . . . Fill in the blank.
Your simple assertion that Hamas rigs elections doesn't carry much weight given your unrealistic attitude towards the facts on the ground there. I'll believe it when I read it in a credible source.
Note that I don't love Hamas or think that they're saints. I can't even say I'd be surprised if I found out you were right. But as of now I doubt it. The election of Hamas was widely praised as the first free and fair democratic election in the Arab world. The fact that you are so eager to find an explanation for why Hamas shouldn't be recognized makes me suspicious that your going to be just one more guy who preaches democracy till someone inconvenient gets elected. And in every case you'll have a wonderful explanation for why we should make an exception.
I realize, of course, that after Fatah illegally tried to take over from Hamas and got themselves kicked out, Hamas's rule is no longer within the legal bounds. But then neither is Abbas's. According to their constitution if he wants to relieve Haniyeh then it falls to the cabinet (i.e. Hamas) to select a new leader. There's no provision in their constitution for the current situation so their both illegally ruling as it stands.
And I can understand that coming here you're having to defend yourself against about 5 or 6 people now but first you had to know this is what would happen, especially when you chose that name. You were trying to provoke and you did. Which is fine by me, I'm just saying . . .
Anyway, your arguments are starting to sound less reasoned and more just like angry lashing out. Just because people disagreed with you one how we should go about promoting it doesn't mean they're "against democracy". And as to whether anyone can answer your question about sharing it with others I answered you by giving you what I was worried would be an overly long and boring answer that might therefore look pretentious quite a while back. I'm not going to start over. If your not satisfied by that answer (and I'm not claiming it's perfect) then you should have picked it apart at the time.
But maybe I'm being unfair in attributing unhing-edness to you. Maybe it sounds that way to me because when your addressing me you seem to really be arguing against one monolithic "Sibel Edmonds fan". I'm not really hopeful of meaningful debate any more but the first step would be to distinguish the debaters.
Zach Says:
If by 'asymmetrical warfare' you mean 'the people are fighting and dying', then you've hit the nail on the head.
It's a blanket term with an easily adaptable definition.
They're not going to march rank and file in pretty patterns for the aircraft.
By one definition, threatening to knowingly bomb civilians in a disproportionate response is terrorism as well.
Tell me, what is a barbarian?
Anonymous Says:
Please tell where this wonderful country is where women will provide you a full meal in exchange for you having sex with them!
Aaaah.
It is located somewhere between the river Pianj, and the Mountain of Dead Hindus
As a supporter of Israel are you really going to challenge others about playing the victim card?
Partly true. But we are changing this.
As per your other comment Kingfisher. I agree – and I think I can agree with that. It is a serious objection and/or position, to which I can also withdraw, if it is indeed beyond our means, to spread the wealth.
@Metemnereusis
Bush rushed the Palestinian elections. No one was ready – and it was against his advisers advice. Participating in an election, does not make you democratic. The issue was as I wrote up-there, that these guys act like thugs. They are terrorists, first and foremost against the Palestinian people.
And to me, it's not about Palestinians being Semites. You see, they are Arabs, and not even Palestinians.
The Turks, for all their faults, accepted a great deal of refugees from non-Turkish Balkans and the Caucauses. Why can't Arabs find decent homes for their "Palestinians". Why are they being persecuted in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon? What's the deal?
I don't think I am being evasive or stooping to name-calling.
I think it is self-evident, what I said above about democracy and Edmonds readers. It's like listening to Democracy Now – half the time you know these people are just expression their own ethnocentric agenda.
Look – again, either you understand that you are privileged or you don't. Once you do,you have to solve the riddle of what to do about the tiers état. And I think I put it pretty well up there. Once Edmonds is put in prison – I will agree with all of you – that the work of the Founders has been negated. But let's get there first, shall we?
My message to Mrs. Edmonds is simple – why not spill all the beans now?
That's all I want to know. Why engage in elaborate games with Ghirardi and comp? What's the point?
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon – the above is by me, sorry, didn't put my name on it.
Metemneurosis Says:
So now your excuse is that the Palestinians were rushed and they didn't really have time to think it over. If this is a legitimate reason for not recognizing a democratic election why not also include complaints like "We're not given any real choices. We only get candidates who are already beholden to all the powerful interests groups in Washington."
Look the definition of terrorism in a broad sense is the use of terror to achieve political ends. But this is pretty broad and depends too much on the (possibly unreasonable) inclinations of the people experiencing the terror. And anyway, many if not all governments in the world would be guilty on this definition. I read somewhere – but can't find it now so perhaps you'll enlighten me – that during the Reagan administration some top officials got together and tried to come up with a definition of terrorism. The problem was for every def. they proposed the US could be construed to have engaged in terrorism. Thus they were all rejected. But even if this story is apocryphal the point is that unless it has a rigorous definition "terrorist" is highly prejudicial word. It's a label you can use that has a lot of power and doesn't require a lot of argument because it invokes so many fearful images. People are never likely to ask for a definition since the word evokes an atmosphere of heightened alert. Asking for a definition would be to risk being seen as unhelpful in the atmosphere of emergency evoked by the word.
So really until it's defined it's just cheap talk. The real question ultimately is a moral question about the justification of the use of violence. If we continue to use the broad definition what do we do with Israel's public admission that the purpose of Cast Lead was to instill fear in the Palestinian people. Perhaps they could just insist on the incredibly clear distinction between fear and terror.
But the point here is just that the word 'terrorist' just confuses the issue because it allows for these kinds of tit for tat recriminations. My problem is not with using violence to instill fear. That can be justified in certain cases. My problem with Israel over Cast Lead is in using violence against innocent people.
Thuggish behavior? What about soldiers shooting 14 year old kids as they're just walking down the street? Of course they just shot him with a rubber bullet (i.e. steel bullet with a thin rubber coating). That's a documented case. What about the videos of settlers throwing rocks from the top of a steep hill – big rocks that could break your skull – at farmers trying to harvest their land while Israeli soldiers stand right next to them. And then the soldiers coming to arrest the farmer because he yelled at the settlers or something innocuous. What about the case of a 19 year old foreign aid worker who was walking Palestinian children home from school (grade school kids) so they wouldn't be attacked by settlers who was herself attacked and had her cheekbone broken with a bottle by a group of full grown male settlers. She and other workers were surrounded by a group of maybe 20 and spit on so much it felt like rain they said. But you're right this has nothing to do with racism.
Metemneurosis Says:
And to me, it's not about Palestinians being Semites. You see they are Arabs and not even Palestinians
I guess I'll let it pass that you basically said Palestinians aren't Palestinians. First, the point of alluding the Arabs being Semites was to draw attention to the hypocrisy of those who constantly appeal to the word 'anti-semitism'. It's just that it's ironic really.
As for whether you're concerned with they're being Semites. An American racist will typically say of blacks that he doesn't dislike them because they're black but because they're trying to corrupt his culture or whatever. So the fact that you say you're not concerned with that says little in itself.
And this thing about there not being any Palestinians. There is a geographical area called Palestine. There are people who live there. By your argument there are no Asians, no Americans, no Africans etc. etc. The world is magically depopulated. Maybe you should propose this solution to all those concerned with overpopulation.
This is one of those standard Israeli apologist arguments. And it's really a pathetic one.
Look the mandate of Palestine under international law at the time of the break up of the Ottoman empire was supposed to be formed into a nation state or states based on the desires and votes of the inhabitants. Balfour had no legal standing to grant anyone anything. But even if it had been legal that in no way justifies kicking people out of their homes, nor ethnically cleansing Arabs from their property. And before you tell me that Jews had had a presence in the land since ancient times let me just say "So what". This doesn't justify kicking people out of their homes or ethnic cleansing either.
It's not the Arabs job to find descent homes for the people who lived in what is modern day Israel. The fact that you think it is the Arabs job because the Palestinians are Arabs strongly suggests that you're thinking of this in racial terms. It's as if you said "Why don't all these blacks quit complaining. If they don't like it here why don't they go back to Africa." i.e. where the other blacks are. See the analogy. They don't go to Africa because this is their home. Palestinians don't want to live in Jordan. They want to go back to their homes. Some of them still have the deeds and the keys to their houses. But a lot of them are willing to give that up too if you'll just stop killing them and taking more of their land. Israel now controls 60% of the West Bank and has about 500,000 people there. And I don't think that even includes East Jerusalem.
As for whether I'm privileged. I don't know what you mean. Do you mean that I should feel privileged to live in the US? If that's it then, yes I do. Do you mean I'm spoiled and ungrateful? Then I'd say spoiled yes, ungrateful no. But in that case I don't see what's supposed to separate you. Nor do I see how this is related to foreign policy.
On what you said being self-evident. It's apparently not because it appears manifestly false to me. 2+2=4 is self-evident. What you said is a complete non-sequitur from anything anyone else here has said.
Zach Says:
Words and labels change in the thousands of years between books.
What if you aren't scared?
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
@Metemneurosis
No. Go subject yourself to terrorism, and then we can see if you want to broaden its meaning. Absurd!
Either words have meaning for you, or you beat them to mean what you want. In that case, conversation is pointless ,as its a foregone conclusion. The same goes for any administration, Reagan or Obama. Do you really expect me to say that if Regan did it, it must be right?!
We have certainly supported groups engaged in terrorist activity. However, at no point in our history did we engage in terrorist activity.
I am baffled by your inability to grasp the meaning of the term.
As for rubber bullets and farmers – please, pick up a rifle and defend your country. Let's see how good a goody-goody you will be. You have nothing to die for, and that's the greatest privilege the hated capitalist and democratic system provides you with.
Is it just me, or are peoples concept of the world at the level of the medieval Catholic church or Saudi Islam? Does everything require a monoexplanation. Now its the family, today everyone is a terrorist from Reagan to Ahmed the neighbor to Sharon the Israeli?
What's up with the limited apparatus here? Yes, a terrorist is angry. Yes a soldier is angry – hence by your narrow logic – the soldier is a terrorist!?
What gives. Come on, its becoming stale!
On Philistines.
There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Never was. There are Muslim Arabs, and that's how they viewed themselves, because their identity prior to partition was religious. Technically they are just "Sabras".
The Land of Israel is Jewish. Always has been and will be. Get with it. We will fight to the last man to keep it that way. As for Canaan, let the Canaanites have it!
Racialist terms?
Jewish isn't a race. But keep your "racisms" to yourself. That's name calling, and it gets me mad.
Jews are a nation. And Israel is ours by commandment and history.
The Romans banned us from Jerusalem. The Byzantines banned us from Jerusalem. The Caliphs banned us from Jerusalem, the Ottomans banned us from Jerusalem, and now the world is banning us from Jerusalem.
But guess what, Jerusalem was never, ever, a Philistine city, and never will be.
You can ban us all you want. And you can do it for 2000 years, but guess what, we'll beat you, and we'll be back. The Palestians, are Arabs. They invaded the land with the Muslims, and ever since, made sure we have no rights to live on our land.
Nation states are nation states. Jews are a nation. The Palestinians will be able to keep the slivers that Canaanites historically possess. And if they want to be Canaan, let them be Canaan!
As for Jordan and Syria – nice dodge. You obviously have ZERO experience in the area. Otherwise you wouldn't make little textbook statements, divorced from reality.
Theoretical question – tomorrow Texas becomes independent, all Texans living in New Mexico demand annexation to the Texan state – you gonna say what?
Konstantin Says:
Metemneurosis,
Regarding what you said about Mike Ruppert concerning peak oil and the food supply, he is wrong. There ARE alternatives to both oil and fertalizer for food crops and can be implemented before the oil runs out. Here is one proposal called the Aim High plan:
Aim High Plan for Factory Mass Produced Liquid Fluoride Reactors
Justifying a police state for a peak oil scenario is just one more in a long line of lies to grab ever more power for the haves at the expense of the have nots.
Metemneurosis Says:
@Anon the Neocon
If it's so self-apparent what makes someone a terrorist then please give me a definition.
I'm not saying that their aren't people who kill and do so wrongly. People who are evil or who are fanatical and dangerous. My point is just that it's difficult to apply the word so many in our government and others want to apply without having to make a choice between precision and hypocrisy. Again ultimately the real question is a moral one but no government will put it in those terms (unless temporarily in the rhetoric of war which people cynically expect and therefore won't even try to hold them to).
So now let's keep in mind that I've said the real question about terrorism is a moral question about the justification of violence. My point was that the imprecision of the word isn't helping with our debate and we should make ourselves clear on what we think justifies or fails to justify violence on the part of the people we're talking about. I would have thought that implication was clear. But obviously this is a topic that gets you very riled up. Nevertheless when you respond to me "Go subject yourself to terrorism, and then we can see if you want to broaden its meaning" you're just missing the point. At the very least we know terrorism involves terror. I've just said it's unclear where the borders are. I never said terror isn't bad.
Metemneurosis Says:
Do you really expect me to say that if Regan did it, it must be right?
I expected no such thing. It was merely an illustrative story.
I am baffled by your inability to grasp the meaning of the term
Again please enlighten me. I'm not saying it can't be made precise just that it's not used with any precise sense.
As for rubber bullets and farmers – please, pick up a rifle and defend your country. Let's see how good a goody-goody you will be. You have nothing to die for, and that's the greatest privilege the hated capitalist and democratic system provides you with.
This is really unhinged. I don't know where you're getting the idea that I hate capitalism. You're projecting a lot of stuff on to me that has nothing to do with anything I've said. And as for whether I hate democracy about a month ago you said to me "I'm glad we can both agree on the need for democracy" These kinds of emotion filled exaggerations aren't doing anything. You might as well type a bunch of meaningless symbols. @@%#%& Q-bert.
I certainly never said soldiers were terrorists. I was responding to your insinuation that certain people were thuggish. The point was that that won't work for your argument that we shouldn't recognize someone politically.
The Land of Israel is Jewish. Always has been and will be.
If you mean 'had jews living in it' I don't know that that's true but probably for most of it's history there was a jewish population there, yes.
Jewish isn't a race
Well that depends on who you ask. According to some it's an ethnicity and it certainly has distinct genetic markers. But that's beside the point. If you don't like racist. We can make up some other terms, like ethnic hubris or religious hubris.
And I don't see it as name calling. You seem to see the situation in racial terms. The Arabs should take care of these people who were living in our land because their Arabs. These people don't deserve to keep the homes they lived in for generations because their Arabs or their Muslim or Christian.
Israel isn't yours by history. Just because some jewish people lived in the land doesn't mean that everyone else who claims that religion has an exclusive right to live their over other people. If having lived on the land is your criterion for rightful claims to it then all muslims and christians have a right to it too. And I wouldn't be surprised to find out that at least one Hindu or Buddist had lived there at one time. So let's invite them to immigrate as well.
It's been quite a while since I've read the Old Testament scriptures. But as I read them, at least the ones shared by the Christian and Jewish traditions, they promised Israel to the Jews so long as they continued to obey Gods law. I seem to remember a few things about not killing and not coveting in the law.
As far as I'm concerned as many Jews as want to can live in Jerusalem. But it's still wrong to take houses from other people who already live there. (Besides that all the examples I gave were from the West Bank not Jerusalem)
And your analogy with Texas is flawed. The correct analogy would be to ask if the Indians have a right to take back their historic lands. The answer is that they have a right to live anywhere they want. And I wouldn't be against government reparations that would help them reacquire lands. Even under current US law the tribes are owed billions that hasn't been paid for decades. But that said they don't have the right to kick me out of my house because I didn't ask to be born here. My ancestors (some of whom were Native American) didn't have a right to take their land but that's not something I did. Still even here there are two crucial disanalogies. In the American case no one lived in my house before I did. If they did then they'd have some claim to it. And here none of the original ethnic cleansers are still alive and reaping the benefits of what they did, whereas that's not the case for Israel.
Mizgîn Says:
Go subject yourself to terrorism, and then we can see if you want to broaden its meaning.
You know what, Mr. Neocon? You've got a lot of balls to come here and say something like that.
When your family members get picked up by state security forces and are subjected to months of torture by them, then MAYBE I'll think about trying to spend five minutes to squeeze out a tear for you.
And the contra-guerrillas and JITEM who did this torture? They were established and trained by the Americans. But that's okay, right? Because they were there to enforce "democracy"! YOUR wonderful "democracy", the same democracy that you forced in Iraq, that you're forcing in Afghanistan, and that you want to force in Iran.
In fact, we can look back a long time and see just where America has tried to force "democracy".
Oh, sorry, I guess you call it "democracy promotion" . . . kind of like the "promotion" that NED projects get into . . . NED projects that are funded by the same organization–a "democratically" elected Congress–that gave Turkey the weapons systems and military training it used to murder tens of thousands of Kurds, destroy thousands of villages, wipe out property and sources of livelihood, "disappear" thousands more Kurds through extrajudicial murder.
It was probably an NED project that built all those acid wells in The Southeast. So that makes acid wells "democracy promotion" and that's why it's all okay with you.
Anyway, it's obvious why you were so concerned about "democracy" for Iran. Too bad you aren't so equally concerned about "democracy" for Palestine.
(Let me add that you don't know where I stand on Uighurs or Palestinians or Iranians so any assumption of yours about what I think about those is just that–an assumption.)
You sound like primitive nationalist Kurds who love to claim that Sivas is historically Kurdish and therefore belongs in a greater independent Kurdistan. But if you don't have the numbers on the ground then you don't hold the ground so it isn't exclusively yours anymore, is it? It doesn't matter how many thousands of years ago that it was exclusively yours.
If you really believe in all your own BS about picking up a rifle and defending your country, then why don't you take your own advice and do the same for Israel instead of getting the Americans to fight for Israeli interests? I mean, that's what all this AIPAC shit is all about, isn't it? Don't YOU have something to die for? YOU go, then, and die instead of being a coward and requiring others to go die for you.
Well, if Americans are stupid enough to keep dying for Israeli interests . .. .
By the way, I think you should ask the British about Jewish terrorist activity.
You probably would have had a lot in common with some guy from the SS, Mr. Neocon. They were smart guys, weren't they? A lot of them had advanced degrees from important universities. They probably threw out a lot of fancy talk of the primitive nationalist variety. But they were pretty retarded in the morality department. Kind of like you.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
Thank you Mizgin, for the "pretty retarded in the morality department". It's always a pleasure when someone can be both emotional and reasonable at the same time. I mean it.
You seem to misunderstand what neoconservatism is about, and there is not enough space in the comments section to let me explain.
Tersely – believe me, you don't know know much about democracy promotion
You believe it is just a fig leaf for geostrategic interests.
You're wrong.
It certainly can be just a "fig leaf"…but that doesn't mean it always is.
Let's talk about Morality – since you brought it up.
Morality is a big word. Please blame your Turkish government, not Washington. We have our interests to look out for –
1) Our national security, which presumes defending the national sovereignty of the United States of America as a constitutionally ordered nation.
2) To promote an international environment favorable to our security.
Promoting democracy in Turkey we do via the EU. And there America has been supportive of EU efforts – that's why the situation of Kurds has improved in the last decade.
We also protect the rights of all Turks, by making sure they have a stable state to maintain their sovereignty and security. You can chaff all you want – but Eurasian politics don't leave room for idealism. From its inception, the Kemalist project failed in establishing a modern state – hence Turkey is extremely vulnerable to fragmentation, and radicalization.
Go ahead and chaff, and blame us for making the technology which the Turks bought.
But you're being cheap. I suppose you'd rather be shot with something made in the USSR or China?
My point isn't that a US bullet is sweeter – my point is that the killing is being done by your government, not ours. And if we had failed to so much as maintain a relationship with your government, its very likely that there would right now be no Kurds of which to speak. After what they did to the Armenians, one wonders what a Soviet occupied Anatolia would have looked like – considering the prominence of Armenians in the USSR.
You can hate Israel, and you can hate America, because you can't admit that the alternative – a Turkey allied to the USSR or dominating a Pan-Turanist empire, would have done to a national group who refused to recognize Turkish sovereignty.
You would have gone the route of the Chaldeans my friend.
Hate us for counterinsurgency expertise…but it saved lives – including yours.
Anonymous Says:
@Metemneurosis
I liked your name – always nice writing it – although tempted to say Metempsychosis.
Thanks for being tolerant with my occasional outbursts. They are not personal.
Ok – terrorism for me, is the systematic tactical usage of ground explosives against civilian populations engaged in their day-to-day activities.
Terrorism is not the same as terror (we agree, I hope).
The US, again has never engaged in any kind of terrorism, in its history.
Unfortunately, we have cooperated with terrorists. We have aided them. We gave them political support and diplomatic cover. We have also exploited terrorism in political terms – meaning that instead of admitting it was Karimov that did it, we towed the Dushanbe line,etc.
I would be foolish to deny any of this.
But the fact remains that our people have never-ever engaged in actual terrorism – our culture, traditional American culture and whatever is left of it – doesn't cultivate that kind of mindset. And I dare say most cultures in the world – do exactly that. China, Islam, Africa, Russia, all cultivate a profoundly cruel and sadistic type of man. We have our Chuck Princes, but they don't compare to the monsters I've seen.
About analogies.
I maintain that my Texas analogy is correct, and your native American one is wrong. Unless of course you want to reverse it – the Jews are the native Americans, not vice versa – but even then, I wouldn't go there.
One cannot find a "golden rule" to deal with territorial conflict.
If we go case by case, we can't find a guiding principle for the following Yugoslavia, Kosovo, Georgia (Abkhazia, Ossetia), Moldavia, Israel/Arab Occupied Territories (AOT), Turkey-Greece, Kurdistan…
Native Americans. There are a few problematic myths in relation to them.
First, they were savages. Doesn't justify any abuse on our part – but they were not saints. Second, they did not object to our presence here. Third the conflict was mutual, and its not clear how it started. Like with Islam in Egypt. No one doubts the Copts preferred the Muslims to the Byzantines – for about the first fifty years.
The difference was, the Copts were a bit more civilised than their Muslim occupiers. In the American case, the Natives were always savages.
The Natives here, were not interested in settling down. Their own warrior values made them amenable to being used by the French, then by the British, into perpetual war against the young new state.
History is replete with defeats of nomads – because the inverse – is always worst – Mongols and devastation.
The Natives in America had no claim to all of the land here. We built this country, not they. We certainly committed crimes against them in the process – regrettable crimes – but we owe them nothing, as those crimes form only a portion of the actual acquisition of land – nor are we responsible for their initial savage state.
If anything, our real crimes were committed against the Spanish/Mexico where we stole a lot.
But in as much as every-single citizen of the earth benefits from what the Founders built in America- they owe some of that gain to the regrettable occasions when Native American's were forcibly removed from land that we had recognized as theirs.
There is no greater shame for this nation, than inconsistent application of law – or lawlessness. The Native American's weren't its only victims…but that's another story.
As Neocons, we want democracy promotion to be a consistent feature of our foreign policy as a part of general promotion of rule-based behavior in the international system.
Metemneurosis Says:
@Anon the neocon
Metempsychosis, you realize, means transmigration of the soul. But even if we let 'psychosis' have it's modern meaning then 'metempsychosis' would mean change in psychosis, which isn't obviously insulting. But hey it's the thought that counts right?
I presume by 'savages' you mean something like primitive and war-like. That's too broad a brush (for instance we actually had a treaty the Cherokee nation, who invented their own alphabet and were publishing bilingual newspapers before we relocated them) but it's not really important for the larger issue . I agree they didn't have a claim to all the land and I agree they weren't all saints and probably did a lot of wrong themselves. Just like any other group of human beings. Still I think it's wrong to say we don't owe them anything.
If in saying I should reverse the analogy you mean to imply that the Jews were kicked out by some other occupier and therefore have claim to the land I disagree. Look let's drop the historical analogies as they're just complicating the issue. Very simply here's how it works. If you kick me out of my house or off my land then you've wronged me and you owe me some kind of reparations. If I die and you die that's usually it. End of story. The only exception is if my grandchild or child can show that they somehow suffered by not having access to the house you took from me. If I built a new house in another location and they grew up there, there's not going to be much plausibility to that. If my grandchild goes and tries to claim the land from your grandchild it's essentially someone who hasn't suffered any wrong trying to take something from someone who hasn't done any wrong, hence it's just the same as when you took the house from me in the first place. To see the matter as a case of 'those guys took it from us' as in 'those Arabs or Muslims took Jerusalem from us Jews' is still to see it in ethnic or religious terms. There's no ethical ground to stand on here. People are moral agents not ethnicities or religions. As many Jews as want to live in Jerusalem should have that opportunity. It would be fine with me if Jews are allowed to immigrate to the West Bank if they want too. But they have to make deals to which both sides come voluntarily and which both sides agree on to purchase the land from those who currently own it. It's very simple just like the property laws in most any society anywhere else.
As for your definition of terrorism I presume that since you're limiting it to 'ground explosives' you'll agree that Hamas's use of rockets to hit Israel doesn't constitute terrorism. If not then I'll presume we can include use of bombs and missiles as worthy of consideration here. But what then of the US fire-bombing of Dresden or Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I believe these all count as the deliberate targeting of civilian populations. It also follows from your description of terrorism that no one who uses only guns can be a terrorist. I'd think there would be a lot of groups who'd like to use this loophole if they knew about it. It'd be awful convenient for political reasons. If we're going to presume from the beginning that the US has never participated in terrorism (I'm not going to presume this bit if I did . . .) then we could take this to show that your definition is highly inaccurate.
Unfortunately, we have cooperated with terrorists. We have aided them. We gave them political support and diplomatic cover. We have also exploited terrorism in political terms – meaning that instead of admitting it was Karimov that did it, we towed the Dushanbe line,etc.
And this is the same behavior that got many of the detainees we've been torturing into their prison cell's, including American citizens still held without trial. Now perhaps the difference is one of mens rea. But that's pretty difficult to establish and no one has tried with the current detainees, at least not in any real court. If they did then I'd be more likely to support their efforts.
Mizgîn Says:
Thanks for confirming my suspicions about your lack of morality, Mr. Neocon. Such a lack is very Straussian of you.
It's also consistent with the Straussian idea that only those who realize there's no morality are the ones who are fit to rule . . . over all the untermenschen, naturally.
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