The Poisoned Well
Wednesday, 26. August 2009
To Drink or Not to Drink
- Once upon a time an evil witch visits a kingdom and poisons the central well with a potion that drives people mad. The next morning all who drink from that well go crazy. The king, however, knew about this in advance, and didn’t drink from the communal well. The next day, those who drank the poisoned water came to the king and accused him of being the crazy one. The king, aware of what had transpired, was faced with a dilemma: drink from the well and lose his sanity like the rest of his subjects, but remain king; or don’t drink, remain sane, but be swept from power by those who would view his very sanity as madness.
Today in our nation those who refrain from drinking from the well poisoned by the establishment witch are categorized, marginalized, and labeled mad, crazy, extremist, conspiracy theorists, and other adjectives along the same line:
Those driven by pure, agenda-free, and nonpartisan civil liberties motives are coined as die-hard unrealistic idealist liberals.
Those in government who dare to come forward, speak up, and tell the truth are labeled as disgruntled whistleblowers.
Those political candidates who choose to run as a ‘people’s candidate,’ not the establishment candidate representing this special interest or that foreign interest’s agenda, are referred to as nutcases, eccentrics, and crazies.
Those groups who fight for accountability and demand justice are dismissed as extremists.
Those activists who dare to ask for ‘real’ investigations in matters such as 9/11 are grouped and stuffed in a bucket as insane conspiracy theorists.
Those real investigative journalists and reporters who have defied the ‘dictation,’ refusing to become stenographers , have found themselves jobless and without paid outlets to publish.
…
Today in our nation, with the help of the mainstream media and the pseudo alternative-media alike, anyone who dares NOT to drink from the well poisoned by the establishment corruption, greed, abuses and lies, tainted foreign policy agenda, and cover-ups, is destined to find himself stuffed into the same bucket of crazies, loonies, the mad and insane.
Do you want me to be a bit more specific? My pleasure.
Since I recently posted excerpts from Representative Ron Paul’s speech titled ‘Is America a Police State?’ let’s start with him. During his Presidential candidacy he was consistently, and falsely, marginalized as Anti-Semite, racist, extremist, radical, and many other pejorative adjectives. Who did that? Not only the mainstream media, but also those pseudo alternatives who happen to be the extension of the same establishment media only with a different front/mask. These adjectives and intentional marginalization were used for other candidates as well. Whether it was Representative Kucinich being depicted as a wacky nutcase chasing UFOs, or others with similar non-establishment platforms.
I can write several volumes on how whistleblowers, especially those threatening ones from the Intelligence, defense, and law enforcement agencies were viciously attacked and falsely depicted by establishment operatives. Whether based on my own personal experience, or my 150+-member whistleblower organization, or the many friends and acquaintances I’ve listened to throughout the last 8 years, I’ve got plenty of examples.
Remember the burial of AIPAC Espionage Case and Trial? The FBI agents pursuing the involved treasonous criminals were painted as Anti-Semite witch-hunters. A very few investigative journalists, such as Stein of CQ, were portrayed as Right Wing Conspirators attempting to go after their darling filthy senior Democrat representatives. Please be my guest and go check the pseudo Israel-serving alternative media front-runners’ sites’ archive.
The recent sound and needed call by the groups who still seek ‘real’ answers via real investigations into the terrorists attack on September 11 is another specific and recent example. I am talking about the gigantic holes in the fable produced by a group of well-poisoners who had spent their entire career-life in the pockets of the conning establishment. I am talking about dozens of FBI, CIA and other relevant agency insiders such as Coleen Rowley who’ve been demanding an independent and real investigation. The mainstream media and their extension in the pseudo online media have made sure that these voices and calls are either buried, or spun as collective conspiracy theorists worthy of only ridicule.
Let me give you another specific example. People have been forwarding to me communications they have received via popular pseudo progressive online outlets who have been trying very hard to depict my recent sworn testimony as ‘mere allegations,’ and simply lies. I know some of these individuals’ past work and relations. For the last 8 years I have ignored them, and I will continue to do so. Some of these phoney cowards who have been posing as ‘alternative’ are fairly well-known in Washington DC circles and intelligence-related gatherings. One ex-state department operative, who is a regular face in DC cocktail circuits for the State Department and relevant think-tank well-poisoners, either intentionally or out of stupid naivety started this propaganda rumor that ‘I got a glimpse of a much bigger sting operation that I don’t understand, thus rightfully I’ve been gagged…’ This is what you get from Mr. Grossman’s personal buddy;-). Another one – who is now a favorite among Israel circle money pockets and who’s been receiving million dollar donations/investment – has recently been promoting me as a ‘crackpot.’ Coming from him, I consider it an honor. Honored to not be a poisoned-well-drinker. They may produce a good work here and there, but these people are by no means ‘non-establishment,’ and whether intentionally or not they try their darnest to get you to drink from the well.
…
Anyway. The reason I am writing this post while busy traveling is this:
I’ve been corresponding with several well-known and very-well-respected investigative journalists who are willing to cover some of these blacked-out stories, cases, and issues; do so as solid investigative work. However, they need to make a living. One way they can do this is to get paid per story/work as contract journalists, and cover exclusive and explosive stories for this site – which will have a new home soon.
Instead of sitting on our bu..s and pulling our hair when it comes to absent journalism in our country today we can go ahead and do something about it. Well, I am in a position where I believe I can do something about it. I can increase the frequency of my exclusive radio interviews to weekly or maybe even more frequently. I can hire several experienced and well-known journalists to cover some of the issues we’ve been discussing. I can do all this only with your support. I don’t want to, I have no desire, no intention, to chase funders and get inside their pockets to do this. Once you do that, you are done; you’ve drunk from the poisoned-well. That’s a fact. Whether those who do it accept it or not, it is what it is. Also, I am not interested in a strategy targeting advertisers for funding. That too defeats the purpose; at least my purpose. So we have only one option left: a site for the people (at least those who don’t want to drink from the well), by the people.
Okay. Now it is your turn. Please let me know if you are ready to support this. Also, let others know and get their take. After my return I will be in a position to decide which way to go, and the major part in this decision will come from you.
Anonymous Says:
I love your writing style and original coin phrases. Well written piece and sobering. Thank you for all your efforts. I'll forward this piece and twit.
Mark
mmonk Says:
I will support your efforts. Knowledge is a key of a democratic society and an essential element of freedom.
Dennis Says:
Hi Sibel,
You have a great idea there and I would be willing to support this effort. I am retired on a small income – but a part of that will be earmarked to participate with you in this quest. People need to know in ways they will understand. Thanks for your tireless efforts.
You are the bestest!
Warmest regards,
Dennis
Miguel Says:
Yes, Sibel, I am ready. I am sick and tired of these so-called 'progressive' journalists downplaying this story because it doesn't fit in to their treasured view of how the universe works (only Republicans are corrupt and warmongering; just support the Democrats and all the problems will go away).
I will support you, and I will support journalists like Jeremy Scahill and Amy Goodman. And I want the Obama Administration to know, I'm as mad as Hell about your case, and Afghanistan and health care and all the other things they've sold us out on.
Sibel, can you let us know who these journos are so we can confront them?
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Mark: Thank you for your support and kind words. Phil Giraldi wrote a very objective and crisp piece on this issue: http://www.amconmag.com/blog/2009/08/27/sibel-edmonds-speaks-but-no-one-is-listening/
MMonk:Many thanks. Upon my return I will post a more detailed project plan, and plug in the new improved blog site. Together we can make this happen.
Dennis: As always, greatly appreciated. I will list the names and bios of the journalists, and I know all of you will recognize and like the list.
arealjeffersonian Says:
Of course I will support your efforts – if you are willing to continue to give your all as you have been doing, then the least we can do is to give you our support. It is past time for someone like you to step up and give us an alternative that we can trust. Just let us know when you are ready – we're here for you.
Anonymous Says:
Sibel,
Thanks for all you do and have done for America. You are a true Patriot.
I have the domain name http://www.citizensnews.org if you want it you are welcome to it.
You need to check with film makers and see if any are interested in doing a blockbuster film. Certainly enough material for a great political thriller. You might want to ask http://twitter.com/kevinpmiller he does documentaries.
I'm @Citizensnews on Twitter if you want to send a message.
Cheers, Lyle
Jon Says:
Thank you Sibel for your continued courage.
I have been an activist for the last 7 years with regards to 9/11. I have given up most of my friends, a lot of time with my family, and for the most part, my life for this cause. I have done everything within my power to support the families seeking justice, and the 9/11 First Responders seeking the help that they need. All throughout that time, I have contended with a media who has painted me as a "conspiracy theorist," a "terrorist sympathizer," a "crazy/nut/loon/tinfoil hat wearer", and recently, a "Holocaust Denying Murderer."
This country has "Freedom Of The Press" in its Constitution, and yet, according to Reporters Without Borders, we are ranked 36th in the world for it.
http://www.rsf.org/en-classement794-2008.html
That is disgraceful. I hope your efforts do for us as you hope that they will. Thank you again Sibel. You are beautiful.
Anne Says:
I don't have much money, but I will make sure I give you something.
holger bruno babiar Says:
Sibel, please continue your efforts. The day of truth will come.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Miguel: Thank you.
Absolutely. I knew about the power of partisanship, but I had no idea how far it could go in influencing the media. Now those so-called progressives (the phoney/pseudo online alternatives) have turned against those who fought most during the prev. admin. The killing /war machine continues in Afghanistan and elsewhere, the NSA continues it's spying of US citizens, the FBI continues to issue NS Letters, and despite what they try to portray, the torture investigations will end up no different than any other similar investigations we've had…
Names? So many; where do I begin. Some of the names you are familiar with: Josh Marshall and his newly found pro Israel backers have been putting out the 'crackpot' adjective on this latest deposition case. Mr. Clemons who was quick to put out the rumor on 'The Big Sting Operation,' and did so without naming his very close friends/sources in State Department…The partisan fluff talker didn't bother to check my members list to see how many state department people I've got. His record, and his dear father's record is pretty well-known info in the 'real' circles…
Anyway, as I've said. Let's just ignore them. More and more people are getting to see beyond their fronts.
Real Jeffersonian: Thank you.
Lyle (CitizensNews): Thank you for all your support. I am familiar with your twits, and, greatly appreciative of your efforts to disseminate my notices. Your offer to give me your 'great' domain name is so very touching; thanks. It's a perfect name. We will certainly collaborate in getting our upcoming info/news out.
Jon: You've been a great supporter for a long time. Thanks. Please keep us posted on any progress re: NY petition.
Anne: You are so very kind. I'll keep you posted.
Anonymous Says:
Sibel, The Good book teaches that Satan is the Ruler of this world (see Matt 4;8) and that the Jews are God's chosen people. Political corruption goes back to before Nimrod and Babylon. Do you really think you can make a difference? In all honesty, I say give it up and walk away, it aint worth it. Its like trying to move the Ocean with a small pale and a small shovel, it is something children like to try but then as adults, they realize It's Impossible. Shalom. Sincerely, jfele@aol.com PS remember the USS Liberty
Metemneurosis Says:
Hi Sibel,
I've told you roughly what my situation is in the past so you'll understand that I don't have very much money at all right now but I'll do what I can. Early next year I should be in a better position and then you can definitely count on me for a more significant contribution.
This is great. I can't wait to see things come together.
jpcarson Says:
Hi Sibel,
Sure, I'll support the effort financially.
But my suggestion is that we (i.e. people who support your efforts and think the so-called whistleblower advocacy groups frequently exploit those who seek their assistance) firmly tell their Boards that if they do not add people as you to their Boards, that we will collectively expose how they exploit whistleblowers to their funding sources, try to get them rejected as donee organizations by the Combined Federal Campaign, etc.
It's a fallen world, by my worldview, in need of continual reform, including whistleblower advocacy groups.
Joe Carson, PE
OSC Watch
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Anon (the Shalom): Well, obviously you are not alone. Many people have given up and assumed similar position. Meanwhile the water is boiling;-) We cannot make all the wrongs right, but we can make certain things better; incrementaly…If you have enough buckets you can even empty the ocean:-)I have my bcket ready, so let's bring in more buckets!
Metemneurosis: Now this makes me shy…I haven't even started the donation campaign or anything…Once I have a fairly good sense of going rates for solid stories (ex: Wall Street pays 300-500 for those with no travel requirement…)and have my meetings with my journalist friends, I'll have more…
JPCarson: Welcome. I know what you mean. As you know I've given up chasing that subject. This is what I mean by accepting foundation donations…no free lunch in this sin city. If they hand you/your cause that kinda money, they've got you by the ba..s, and once you grow dependent 'n that fund (your payroll, etc.), you end up whoring big time to maintain or increase that fund. This is why it's a 'no no' in my book. Whether it is Soroz, or, George Clooney; whether it is AEI or Brookings…
Anonymous Says:
@the Shalom: "Forasmuch then as the children were partakers of flesh and blood, he himself likewise took part of the same, that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is the devil"
"And the beast that thou sawest was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into peridition, and they shall wonder who names are NOT written in the book of life, when THEY behold the beast who was, and is not, and yet is"
Translated: Non Christians, or those Christians stuck in the Old Testament, still believe in the Devil. Where do you stand, Shalom?
Mowgli
Anonymous Says:
@Mowgli, We don't need him "the Devil" but he is there. He walked with Unit 731 in China and with the SS at the European Concentrations camps and His children, the Illuminatti, rule the world. He is real but we are evil enough on our own. That's where God comes in and his good book.
@ Sibel, go for it, but like Hercules for every one hydra you take down 3 will spring up in its place. God bless you as you fight the good fight. Shalom.
Woozle Says:
Right now we personally (me and the hypertwin) are in a mess, financially, and I'm trying to keep it from getting worse — otherwise I would definitely sign on for some kind of regular contribution subscription to help kick this work into high gear without any establishment dependencies.
I could offer technical help (I am a programmer and web developer), but the same time-devouring issue that has gotten us into our lovely financial situation also means I can't really promise any particular number of hours per week or month, or turnaround time on any particular thing you might need. Some months and some weeks I can get work done, and some just get swallowed whole. (Slightly related: the problem in question is very much due to our broken healthcare system — and I am watching in horror as the mainstream media stands by and passively encourages the establishment's efforts to slowly and carefully kneecap any efforts at reform.)
I'm hoping that this situation at least will be resolved within a few months, at which point I could definitely commit some time if that would be helpful.
Anon/Shalom: I thought atheists were supposed to be the nihilists!… If Satan (or evil, or whatever label you want) has gained control of human affairs on this planet, it's up to us to do something about it. Evil is a human force; each of us has some amount of it within us (some more than others), but most of us are basically good.
As a child, I used to think it was impossible to change the world, and we should just go along in the knowledge that things will probably be okay even if they are imperfect.
As an adult, I see that it is our responsibility as citizens of a free society — and whether or not the US of A is a free society, I am still a citizen of one, possibly one under siege or occupation — to see that it remains free. I also begin to see, from studying the lessons of history and looking at the vast knowledge we have accumulated since its dawn, how this can be done.
Anonymous Says:
I've been a follower for five years or more as you are one of my most admired people. I'm glad the specifics of your story is starting to come out into the open. Go for it.
SanderO Says:
Sibel,
My college roomates where Turkish. One of them became a whistle blower and fought for 10 yrs and I believe he was eventually silenced with some sort of monetary settlement of a few million dollars. He began a Cui Tam suit with the gov. I don't know the exact nature of the settlement. He was not able to speak about and moved to the West Coast
He may be able to help you. I am sure he would support your cause if he can, but I can't speak for him.
He was not a national security whistle blower but about the Pharma Industrial complex. Google his case, there's lots out there, and I can give you contact info if you want. He's a great guy and I have know him for over 30 years.
Read this:
http://www.geocities.com/buckeyepa/erdem.html
We have your back.
SanderO
Edit_Mommies Says:
It is like the sideways glance we interpret the lofty aspects of human engineering with is only done, gleefully, from the passenger seat.
spoonful Says:
Hi Sibel – I always thought these people were simply pods from Invasion of the Body Snatchers, but you may be right about the poison water . . . I just discovered this site . . . it's nice to see that there are other people who are not pods or have not yet drank (drinken? drunk?) from the ugly water . . . so from the land of Paul Revere and the original revolutionaries, your simple tenacity and boldness in the face of big fat power makes you the modern day joan of arc. For that, I and so many others are grateful.
JCarb Says:
Mrs. Edmonds, My only fear is that if I'm able to help out financially, I hope we are able to get any bang from our bucks. The way Bernacke and his henchman are ruining the dollar, I frankly can't think of any better way to get the remaining value than to contribute to your idea. I think it's wonderful, and proves that a citizen journalist who doesn't drink out of the Washington coffee machine, is better than any "journallist" who gets his or her paper from Princeton or Harvard.
It's always been my goal to discuss ideas, without any character assaination. I always tell people that a statue of you should be placed in every state capital for all you've done to not only expose the corruption and other crimes in Washington, but this wonderful idea that motivates people to actual care not only about themselves, but for their families, and the future generations.
Best wishes always, and hope you're having a wonderful vacation. BTW, this is Jean Carbonneau again.
JTRockville Says:
Count me in Sibel.
Zica Says:
Hello again, Sibel. This post is a perfect door on which I can knock and say "May I please come back in?"
First, since my last comment, my new daughter has been born and relieved some tension and I am ready to converse again. I apologize for my frustrated departure. (Side comment @ Edit_Mommies: Although inspiring, your comments could make better use of commas and better positioning of prepositions.)
I contributed financially to your legal defense fund way back when you had a legal case, but I'm more excited to contribute to this new citizen journalism project you're envisioning. It's a perfect and public solution to the establishment problem of our Fourth (and most important) Estate.
Also, I'm thrilled that you were able to mention an unmentionable topic in this post as well.
Last, since you've been in NZ, I want to suggest that you see Whaledreamers, if you haven't already. It documents the plight of the Mirning, in neighboring Autralia, with an inspiring international relevance.
Anonymous Says:
It must be the golden air of the golden bay bringing that focus up sharp Sibel. The thought of well respected investigative journalism pulling the scab off 911 and all the attendant collateral crimes sounds like the full throat of Gabriel to me .yes please.
Let it BLOW.
The fates that rule the world don't give details, so who knows how justice works. who knows how truth works but unless we try…nothing good will happen. Again and again and again the information streams providing evidence of collusion 911 false flag BEG investigative journalism untainted by these creatures of the poisoned well.
remo
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Zica: You are (and have been) always welcome here; you know that.
Your Daughter's Birth: Congratulations!Of all the joys I've known/experienced in my life, the joy of motherhood tops it all; and I mean all.
Thank you for your past and current support.
'to mention an unmentionable topic': Maybe I was misunderstood. The topic has never been unmentionable to me. I am, an have always been a supporter of truth, accountability, and justice when it comes to 9/11. I do support a real investigation, by 'real people.' It's just that some people visit sites to post 'propaganda' sounding comments on the issue, and many either intentionally or intentionally distort facts. Also, some come with general 'offensive' attitude for attack. And, they do so even in unrelated topics/context. Have you read Coleen Rowley's last piece on this issue? I am 100% supportive of her, and many who share her sound view and suggestions.
Love NZ. Ela loves it here. We just came back from a quaint farmers' market in a beautiful town where she got to roll in the mud with other babies!!
Anyway, hope to see you here regularly.
Jean: as always nicely expressed comment. Many thanks.
Spoonful: Welcome, and hope to see you here regularly. When you get a chance check out our Boiling Frogs interviews.
SanderO: I just finished reading the WSJ article. It's a very interesting case, and I tremendously respect him for how he stood up and fought for the truth.
Anonymous Says:
great idea, i'll support it
Zica Says:
Thank you!
Dan Gardner Says:
I will support this however I can.
Anonymous Says:
Anon the Neocon-
@Mrs. Edmonds,
I venture Mrs. Edmonds, that poison well analogies are dangerous. For it isn't clear who drank from them and when.
Towards the end of your post, You mention your purpose. Why not simply finally elaborate on that purpose?
Some of your points
*Anti-Semitism as an inaccurate label.
-I cannot comment on Ron Paul, I've ignored him, but I read his followers works with pleasure. I have yet to find any real Anti-Semite amongst them.
But there are many real anti-Semites out there, and they make up half the conspiracy loonies. Then there are those who think Israel and AIPAC are at the heart of America's problems – well, they are misguided – by Anti-Semites, if they themselves are not Jew Haters.
*whistleblowers marginalized.
-Whistleblowing as a protected status was not meant to become a profession. Most whistle-blowing is frivolous, and wrongheaded. It's become a career path. I can see from the absence of your own direction, that this is the case for your Mrs. Edmonds. For it is not at all clear who or for what you are fighting for – other than the careerism of whistle blowing.
I mean this no antagonistic way. As I've said before, go ahead and run with it – that's what capitalism is for – but I wont fall for the "prison state" and "poison well" tropes. I have other literature to read, thank you.
*Recent testimony are allegations
-You yourself chose to limit your testimony to what is public information, and often not based on your experience. With all the complexities in which financing of lobbies takes place it is doubtful you are competent to judge whether or not something was beyond the letter of the law – yet that's what you allege. Naturally, some of us are skeptical when what passes for testimony is indistinguishable from personal judgment. The financing of anything is a complicated issue for accountants and consultants – yet here you are, convinced that Hastert is guilty of criminal misconduct.
Per Grossmann – how can you possibly distinguish – and I mean you personally Mrs. Edmonds – whose policies he was carrying out?
I'd venture, you can't. And what you've done, is you've mistaken corruption, for perfectly legal practices of civic society – which are in actuality government back-channels.
I am all for a more diligent investigation of 911 – but honestly – this is easier said than done – like it or not – any such investigation will be first and foremost an exercise in public relations – even if you ran it.
Reading your poisoned well piece I feel you have somewhat of the arrogance to assume you have the knowledge to pass judgment.
It is profoundly regrettable, because you started out as someone who had first-hand knowledge of something concrete, and have now gone the route of reporting second-hand rumor. I went from believe in what you had to say, to a great deal of uncertainty.
Poisoned well – I would venture you might have been among the first to drink from it.
Why not civil disobedience? Why not spill the beans? Wikileaks will do it for you.
And it brings us back to the start – what is your purpose?
Konstantin Says:
To Anon the Neocon- (and my only reply to you and the only post of yours I'll bother reading anymore)
Reading your comment (#32 in this post), I am reminded of those famous words of Barney Frank "What planet do you live on?"
I think your intentions are not to offer anything constructive to this or any other post in Sibel's blog but to cause disruptions.
Anonymous Says:
I will be checking back often in hopes of seeing Sibel's response to Anon the Neocon. Although, in general, I believe that identifying oneself as a neocon is the same as identifying oneself as a disciple of the devil, some of the points seem well-taken. Personally, I am on the fence on a lot of issues that have been discussed on this website, which I think is a worthwhile site that I hope continues well into the future. However, I do know a couple of things. Many of the individuals on Sibel's list quietly, but unceremoniously, left the Bush administration which may have been a direct result of whistleblowing and dealmaking between the two political parties. And I do know, having worked in government that the system is corrupt to the core from top to bottom and something needs to be done about it. Yes, please continue this website.
Anonymous Says:
Excellent essay Sibel! It is only because of people like you that I really have any hope in the human race whatsoever. I do not believe that governments will always be corrupt. I do not believe that it is human nature for evil to rise to the top. What I do believe is that we have much work to do to shine our light into the darkness. Dark is not the opposite of light, it is the absence of light. Thank you for all that you do.
Anonymous Says:
Will do what I can. Thank you & congrats'
Phil Says:
Sibel –
There needs to be more specificity to the request. For example, how many Journalists do you need / want to start? And this will cost X amount of money per story or per month? You probably need additional miscellaneous funds as well some 24/7 cameras
Let's start with tangible accomplishments that are achievable in a short period of time. Let's say 200 people @ 25 / mo = $5K / mo. Is that too little? OK. Perhaps shoot for higher numbers and less money. Many don't want to record it on their bank statements (the few people I've woken up don't want to write checks to any 9-11 Truth cause for example..only cash)
Judging from money bombs to alex jones, only totaling 250K+..with is alleged sizable base…and the meager sums that Richard Gage and other credible organizations are able to put together..my instincts are telling me that the 'truth' community isn't as large globally or at the very least isn't willing or perhaps able to commit the funds.
This isn't to scoff at the hard work and valuable donations to various causes that many reading this have contributed. I don't have enough to support all the causes either. We all do what we can. I have friends on Wall Street who all make 100+ / yr and say all my work is a complete waste of time.."the world has always been and will always be controlled by power…get over it"…or "get rich" and many other derivations as such.
Others I know with big money love pontificating about politics, but only over cocktails and appetizers. Talk – Action = Zero.
So I say this only to translate your request into reality. I'm working with a small newspaper, The Sovereign, distributed in NYC that would LOVE to publish some investigative work. But obviously your people have bills to pay.
I think you can start by reaching out to alternative publications that can commit let's say $10 / mo for unlimited syndication rights. Then, everyone that wants to post these stories, obviously with honor, can also be a member. I don't think you'll get the volume just off of donations. I do think there's strong possibilities within the underground media if the costs are kept to a minimum. This exposure will undoubtedly catapult and perhaps pricing can change thereafter, or other revenue streams for the journalists will reveal themselves (speaking engagements, etc..)
If anyone has more creative ways to garner support, by all means do so. I just think it's best to define the plan before just throwing it up and hoping it bites. Let's be methodical about it
Edith Says:
Please count me in as a supporter. Let me know how to donate. You are one of the bravest people ever and I am grateful for your service to our country.
Edit_Mommies Says:
@Zica
It is like the sideways glance that interprets the lofty aspects of human engineering, done only from the passenger seat.
George Martinez Says:
Whatever I can do, just ask. I have started a website called Red Stripe News and I plan to have updates on your journey. You are truly an elegant and courageous human being.
Thank you for reminding us of our duty.
nunya Says:
I would consider it. I get solicitations for support all the time.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Edith: Thank you. In the next few weeks I should be able to post a more comprehensive plan, then, will be ready to go.
Phil: Thanks for all the suggestions/points. Please see above. A lot of this will be determined/shaped by my project partners…
George: Welcome. I'll check out your site. Many thanks.
Nunya: You are kind. I don't know why but I am so allergic to that word 'solicitation;' yuck. Two things I suck at: 'solicitation' & 'being diplomatic.'
Kingfisher Says:
If it’s Jeremy Scahill, or his type? No. James Bamford or David Rose? Yes.
My concern Sibel, is that you mean too many different things to different people. How many donors are going to be upset when the stories on 9/11 focus less on whatever crackpot theory they have, and more on the bureaucratic discourse on why terror suspects weren’t considered terror suspects because they were involved in the Chechen insurgency pre-9/11? What are activist types going to say if they get reasoned analysis and investigation instead of the red meat and sweeping conclusions they desire?
In know this is still on the drawing board, and you are putting feelers out, but a clear focus and intent may be necessary before people pony up support.
Zach Says:
There are several ways to visually document contribution and expenditures, the first coming to mind being paypal buttons.
I'll do some research this evening, find the funds transfer service with the lowest take and get back to you.
Feel free to email me if you have any 'tech' questions.
zlbjux@gmail.com
Sibel Edmonds Says:
KingFisher: Excellent point. This is something I have to clearly communicate when the time comes. By no means this plan will cover everything for everyone. It will start small (very small), and hopefully it will grow. The topics will be along the same line (what we've been discussing): Police State (Civil Liberties), Central Asia, Revolving Door, Certain Foreign Policy realted topics…
I don't know why you don't like Scahill. He's done a great job with the topics he'd covered…and, he's been fairly nonpartisan (not one of the Obama-Mania group)…Anyway, he is not on the list currently, but I respect his work greatly, and would love to have him publish here in the future.
As I've said I am going to start small: maybe 3 or 4 well-respected journalists, 4-6 breaking stories/news + solid op-ed pieces + weekly podcast interviews…
I rather have an exclusive group of followers interested in these issues and into critical thinking than a broad try to be everything to everyone. For those people there are 100s of sites: Huffington Post, Daily Kos,etc.
Rady Ananda Says:
I'm behind you 100%, Sibel.
From your last authorization, I've been posting your pieces (and other pieces relating to you) at the COTO Report http://coto2.wordpress.com.
I like the suggestion above that alt sites could fund you – say – $10 a month to reprint these pieces with a special graphic maybe – to indicate we are also funding that work.
btw, I also like Jeremy Scahill's work, altho I've heard some truthers grumbling about him. But, there are legitimate complaints about some truthers being stuck in a pigpen with disinfo agents. I got the 911 story from Ruppert and David Ray Griffin (that's good enuf 4 me)
I encourage you to consider the race or ethnicity and gender of your first stable of contracted writers. Please give us something more than str8 white male perspectives.
Some sites are now paying writers a penny a page view on their articles. That works out to about $40 a month for most of them. Don't think it's a fair fee, but $350 an article (no travel) seems pretty steep if We the People are gonna pay for it.
I worked as a legal investigator for about 15 years (for lawyers), and I assure you, there is no investigation that occurs entirely at one's desk. Travel is always involved.
~ Rady
(Senior Editor from OpEdNews banned for being too "radical" and too "extreme")
p.s. I'm writing a piece about gatekeepers which will cite your recent post on the topic, as well as a few others that are currently discussing this. I'll come back and post the link once it's up.
JCarb Says:
Sibel, I know you're getting buried with request, and suggestioins, so I will add to the pile on here.
Just teasing. But seriously, maybe someone like a Glenn Greenwald, who pulls no punches with anyone, and is very good on civil liberties, and of course, William Grigg, who is excellent on the growing encroachment of the police state. He himself had a near run in with the CPS(Child Protective Services in Idaho).
Thanks for your kind words as well.
Mike Y Says:
Sibel we have followed you for years. I think you are to late. There is to much water under the bridge.
Come to peace with your decision. This is your decision not ours.
Mike
Alaska
Konstantin Says:
Sibel,
Perhaps the story and endeavors of Consortiumnews.com will help with your concept and goals. They depend entirely on donations.
Some history about consortiumnews.com
Parry's Thrust
A Brief History of Consortiumnews.com
Why We Need Investigative Reporting
What Has Been Done, What Can Be Done
Anonymous Says:
Definately…9/11 and other attrocities must be investigated
SanderO Says:
Not sure what sort of things you are expecting in comments. The reporters as FSRN – free speech radio news are young but good. Sy Hersh is old but good, Scahill is good reporter, and Glen Greenwald is damn good comentator.
Marcy Wheeler has an incredible mind, legal and otherwise and can hold so many details and connect dots it is mind boggling.
Amy Goodman – terrific
Danny Schecter.
You probably want some reporters who have a real imprimatur such as Hersh.
But it would be good to sick a whole bunch of them on a big story and let them get at it from different angles.
Ricardo Says:
I donate to Democracynow and KPFK 90.7FM Los Angeles. I like the idea of getting the news I pay for to be free of corporate influence. I would gladly donate to a 501C org that you would help put together. Maybe you can get a show on the Pacifica network? However you do it I'll support you in fact I'll make sure the money comes from my Military Retirement check yes I did that for twenty years but my best medals were from a mission chasing after Typhoons and Hurricanes helping get the disaster centers up and running and the power flowing again the Humanitarian Service Medal.
Zach Says:
While looking through the services Oobapay looked intriguing but the fact that they actually hold money prior to a transfer is distastful.
Someone had mentioned porting to Drupal but I feel that you should have some security knowledge before databasing comes into play, before even factoring in the monetary transfer.
Paypal buttons are simply HTML forms so I would keep your template as simple as possible – If you are going with the Fleur de Leis design there are ways to get rid of the message at the bottom – assuming you go with your own host.
(right click index.html, open with textpad, search for the text)
There are also several services tracking a monthly quota or budget, if that is what you need – say $10 hosting, $1200 for four exclusive stories from professional journalists, etc.
It can be as simple as a little thermometer or much more complex.
I would be more interested in putting my money in places where I can see it working.
In time you could go with a cart system of some sort, but you have your hands full as it is.
Good luck getting this off of the ground.
Anonymous Says:
ProPublica:
"ProPublica: could the non-profit model be the saviour of the newspaper industry?"
http://www.editorsweblog.org/analysis/2009/02/propublica_could_the_non-profit_model_be.php
"Sunlight Foundation & ProPublica Create New Foreign Lobbying Influence Tracker"
http://www.propublica.org/about/sunlight-foundation-propublica-create-new-foreign-lobbying-influence-tracke
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProPublica
http://www.propublica.org/
Regards,
"Tom Joad"
Anonymous Says:
Sunlight Foundation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunlight_Foundation
Foreign Lobbyist Influence Tracker:
http://www.foreignlobbying.org/
Regards,
"Tom Joad"
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Tom Joad: Thank you for the link. I am quite familiar with them…They work with MSM a lot and…
Also, nonprofit-comes with tons of 'hooks' when it comes to campaigns/political canidates/etc. That's why my organizaion, NSWBC, went for C(4)…
Anyway. Many thanks.
Thank you all for making me smile: suggesting Sy Herch? He is a good friend, and he is very happy with his current arrangements. Not many places can afford him or others you have suggested;-)
Rady Ananda: You and I should talk upon my return. I'd like to run a few points/ideas by you…Thanks.
Ricardo: Welcome. So very kind. Thank you.
Konstantin: re-Anon the Neocon: I hear you. I have received many justifiable complaints. I totaly understand he 'dislikes & disrespects me.' What I don't understand 'why he keep coming here'?! I am not going to respond either. The question: What do you want me to do with him?;-)
Also, Bob Parry is a good friend. He's been interviewed for the upcoming documentary on US MSM (will be released-theaters this January), and the film covers my case as it concerns the MSM… Nice guy.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Also Tom: Great link. I've been studying them for a while. Check out a few things about our Senator Leahy (he's been dined, wined, and 'traveled' by the Turkish lobby since 2004- and since he stopped investigating my case): http://foreignlobbying.org/client/Government%20of%20Turkey/
Anonymous Says:
JB:
Have you checked your e-mail? Sad to see Antiwar suffering this much. I've been giving money to them. Hate to see them go.
Zica Says:
I think it would be great if you could get a commitment from the journalists who you hire to make a reasonable effort to follow up on their stories by participating in your comments section. Or at least encourage them to do so. And maybe let the readers know whether or not to expect it?
After seeing your effort at this kind of follow through with the audience, I might be a little spoiled. But it's refreshing and attractive and I'd like to get used to it.
@Edit_Mommies: Thanks! And just beyond the ajar door lie the eyes, mirrored in deep space, making us gulp.
Zica Says:
…and gulpable.
Anonymous Says:
Sibel: I believe I have some important research you may like to see.
I am way… way over my head here.
All Roads Lead to Rome.
I know you know this already.
And I am sure you know a good number of these rogues went to or taught at Georgetown and the Edmund A Walsh SFS. Like Sabri Sayari, Patrick Leahy, Tom Daschle, Bill Clinton, George Tenet, Prince Turki bin Faisel al Saud, Robert Gates, James Jones, George Casey, David Petraeus, Doug Feith…
Jesuit mentors groom the best new world and old world rogue agents.
But I see now how it all comes together. The answer is so simple, and its been under our noses for the last 200 years.
I can explain everything, but to keep the message somewhat brief…
it is the Holy Roman Emperor, he and his Empire did not disappear in 1806 and I have a damn good idea who the current Emperor is. The Roman Empires have been playing things from behind the scenes.
Hell even Blackwater is just an extension of the Knights of Malta, who made Christian Crusaders believe they were a revised version of the Knights Templar.
I know this all sounds like hyper speculation on my part, but I assure you I have done my homework.
"Whos the Man Behind the Curtain?"
I have the answer to this for those willing to journey down the rabbit hole.
Hint: Its not the White or Black Popes, although they both do come from the 2 major Holy Roman Empire nations, Germany and Spain. Isnt it funny how we have had a German Pope in 1,000 years?
Hmmm… now I wonder why that is.
Email: OrwellsGhost@Gmail.com
Skype: Orwells.Ghost
Eric Pottenger Says:
@ Sibel: please place my name in the "curious" column. although my financial means are limited, I care enough about the issues you raise to want to support them under the right circumstances. I look forward to monitoring how your strategy evolves.
@kingfisher: you made a good point, yet your marginalizing "crackpot"[ing] almost spoiled it. perhaps I'm making too much of this but didn't you read Sibel's article? don't you realize that many of us in this 'community' are sensitive about such name-calling. that, in many circles, being called a "crackpot" means that you're really just using your brain? and yet you seem pretty intelligent. why push these buttons?
I'm not shielding ignorance or hasty conclusion-jumping. that is not my intention.
what I'm doing is defending a just and stimulating learning environment. I'm saying that ideas should be challenged individually, including your disagreements with the Truthers.
and I'm HOPING that each of us remembers that we are (individually, collectively) still learning. And that we are still LEARNING ABOUT LEARNING.
in the absence of a healthy environment for the dissemination of ideas, who can blame an energetic and/or confused individual from arriving at frantic, hasty, or wrongheaded conclusions? many people are figuring this shit out by themselves, without guides, without reliable teachers.
yes it's true: straightforward, honest, intelligent political discourse is a rare thing today. but could it not be LESS RARE? I mean, what the hell are we talking about here if not THIS? if not about broadening the base of intelligent ideas to reach a larger share of the community?
if you think that sharing obscure, self-congratulatory intelligence "rare finds" with a handful of obscure intelligence friends is Brainy Activism, I'm afraid I've got news for you.
Stephen Hand Says:
Sibel, your courage is an inspiration. Be strong. The more open and public you are, the more secure you are. When you are visible you are protected.
We appear to be in or approaching a post-coup era of Nihilism (See here)
The treasury has been looted, even our poor dead see their bodies pilfered (See link), the sick and disabled live under threat. But the counter-offensive is on, so they warn that Mr. Obama has power to bring down the Internet.
Information is the weapon against evil. Starve the beasts and feed the people …with information. Globally. Stay strong.
Edit_Mommies Says:
"@Edit_Mommies: Thanks! And just beyond the ajar door lie the eyes, mirrored in deep space, making us gulp." – ZIca
@Zica Then I should start digging a hole in the ground with a lit soldering iron and dowsing stick made of solder.
Anonymous Says:
An original version of the bill, presented in April, was alleged to yield power to the White House direct a shutdown of “critical” networks, similar to controls given with regards to air traffic. However, it did not specify what constitutes a cybersecurity emergency. The most recent draft still lacks this language.
Design of Sibel's investigative reporting needs to design multiple avenues for the story to get out – perhaps something similar to wikileaks with a Ubuntu component.
Simon
Kingfisher Says:
@Eric Pottenger,
Yes, I read the article. My point would extend to persons like myself who would be disappointed if they got red meat and sweeping conclusions instead of reasoned analysis and investigation.
Yes, the article condemns how people are painted as crazy. However, I am sure Sibel has even had it up to her ears with people wielding their pet theories, how they, and they alone KNOW THE TRUTH. People that treat anything incongruent with or threatening to their personal reality with hostility.
You cannot even debate with these people; everything is a personal affront to them. Because it is about THEM, they let it define them. It is not conductive to your “just and stimulating learning environment”. They do not want to learn, they want validation and self affirmation. They want meaning – that’s why these sub-cultures exist.
There are already plenty places on the interweb where people can talk all day long about controlled demolition theories and how a plane didn’t hit the Pentagon. Why do they need another place? It discredits the materiel and voices on the site, and further marginalizes Sibel.
Zica Says:
I have an interest in arguments about CD, among other things, on 9/11 and I find Kingfisher's judgemental attitude to be more of a shaming than a productive perspective. Not all people fit in the box he describes. I'd say the majority don't.
I'm feeling the paint from his brush and I don't think I deserve it.
a ball of Light Says:
Ms Edmonds, i greatly respect you and what you have undertaken. i have nothing to give you but my voice and this leaky bucket i use to carry tunes… maybe one day we can sing a duet or at least blow whistles at the dark…
http://anastomoticsynchrony.blogspot.com/2009/08/blowing-whistles-at-dark.html
Mizgîn Says:
Ah, the poisoned well . . .
We were just discussing this idea in general the night before you posted this, Sibel. The poisoned well will do as a symbol of the problem, although I still find The Matrix has a lot of ways to describe our problem:
"What you know you can't explain, but you feel it. You've felt it your entire life, that there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad. "
Remember, those in The System aren't ready to be unplugged yet because they are still hopelessly dependent on it. Or they've taken the Blue Pill.
Count us in.
Konstantin Says:
Mizgîn I think there is even a better explanation than the Matrix and it has to do with psychology.
Edit_Mommies Says:
AN even sexier explanation of the Matrix?
Anonymous Says:
Our Anon the Neocon?
Rady Ananda Says:
Great graphic at the top!
*I’ve sent out some feelers to journalist researchers – I’m thinking your team might be able to use the services of at least two of us.
*I like the Pro-Publica idea; and am not even opposed to cooperating with mainstream media to get 123 articles cross-posted (for pay). That should alleviate some of the public-support burden.
Your video deposition was mesmerizing and probably the most effective recruitment piece for any activists serious about working with you, or merely to encourage continued support. It’s still in the top-10 at coto2.wordpress.
I read somewhere on here there’s a movie (documentary?) about you. Do you have a link, a title?
T Says:
Hi Sibel,
Best of luck in getting a staff to investigate this further. Can't contribute any funds right now. But I'll do links, clips and other creative stuff to help out instead.
Mrs. B Says:
WHERE IS THE DONATE BUTTON
(click)
THAT IS ME DONATING RIGHT NOW and signing up for a monthly subscription.
Anonymous Says:
@ Rady Ananda:
The movie that you mention is probably this:
"Kill the Messenger"
http://www.justacitizen.com/KillTheMessenger.html
Wikipedia:
"On September 9, 2009, the film will have its U.S. premiere at the 9/11 Film Festival at the Grand Lake Theater in Oakland, California."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_the_Messenger_(film)
youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4qvjDKcqsk
Regards,
"Tom Joad"
Metemneurosis Says:
@ Rady Ananda & Tom Joad
Tom understandable that you thought that was the movie. But in the comments above Sibel mentions an upcoming documentary about the MSM. She's refering to this. I think that's what Rady was asking about.
Rady Ananda Says:
@ Tom Joad and Metemneurosis (what a name!)
thanks… yes, I was asking about Kill the Messenger.
(I'm still playing catch-up.)
mcthorogood Says:
I am impressed by the ProPublica model, less by ConsortiumNews. Whatever you do, be sure to include PayPal donation button.
stefan Says:
Sibel, I see that you've mentioned the example of former Sen. Mike Gravel in interviews; have you been at all in touch with him? He would make a great interview for the Boiling Frogs show, or maybe you could ask him to be a pundit for your new project.
As you may know, in this past presidential election, Gravel entered the race with a campaign centered on his National Initiative for Democracy, which would create a Switzerland-style system of national ballot initiatives in the US. (You might also consider looking into NI4D and possibly endorsing it — current endorsers include Chomsky, Nader, and Ellsberg.)
Unfortunately, Gravel was the first candidate in the Democratic debate to be censored by the mainstream media when MSNBC eliminated him from their debate, notably right after he introduced the topic of Hillary Clinton's vote on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment. Of all the candidates in the race, Gravel was the one who talked most about whistleblowers and government secrecy, owing to his own experience in those areas. He's also written several books, including one about the power of the military-industrial complex and one about the mainstream media. An Edmonds/Gravel dialogue would make for some really great listening.
justawarrior Says:
You should definitely give your best now.
Since things are speeding up, and time is quickly running out, there's nothing left to lose. It's a perfect opportunity to give one's best.
If you don't mind, I'd like to leave here an update on the current situation. Some may find it useful.
—
CIA is currently under "investigation" by the "special team", and their best course of action is to lay low for a while. This time around, it seems they are willing to listen to a good advice. I expect them to come out of it (more or less) unhurt. They seem to have most information on the situation at hand (save for the "underground" parties), and that makes them the center stage of this play.
At the same time, FBI is still stumbling around in total darkness. But last week may have brought some change. If they are any good at what they (are supposed to) do, they will make all the right connections. However, I'm still wary of FBI's upper levels. Seems rather fishy to send FBI after CIA in this situation. Hopefully, upper-level infiltrators will soon be marked and taken care of.
NSA is still listening, as always, and, hopefully, sharing some of the things they find with others. At this point, it matters not whether they share it with the right people, or the wrong ones. Getting it out is the top priority. They should use anonymous sources, and let the recipients deal with the problem of separating good info from the bad.
The rest are either not even players, or have somehow escaped my attention.
Either way, this is truly a perfect opportunity.
Forced moves are expected to follow very soon.
—
Best wishes, Sibel.
You should be given every possible support in your efforts.
Anonymous Says:
I will support you. Thank you for all you've done.
James6463 Says:
Hi Sibel,
I'm with you on this; count me in.
I also have a few thoughts, possible suggestions, ideas (some of which might–I say "might"–be worth considering).
As these involve some considerable detail, i think it best to send them by email. Will send you one on sns where we're members.
Roland Jesperson (Real name: here, there, and everywhere)
Anonymous Says:
August 30, 5:28 P.M. I checked your supposition with the source. Below is his reply: "No connection whatsoever
YD"
Simon
Anonymous Says:
Sibel, I must Quote the Police,
"There is no political solution
To our troubled evolution
Have no faith in constitution
There is no bloody revolution
We are spirits in the material world
Our so-called leaders speak
With words they try to jail you
The subjugate the meek
But its the rhetoric of failure
We are spirits in the material world
Where does the answer lie?
Living from day to day
If its something we cant buy
There must be another way
We are spirits in the material world" http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/police/spirits+in+the+material+world_20110046.html Shalom Jaye
Dave Berman Says:
Sibel,
You are describing one of the next steps in advocacy journalism – the practice to which I am now also devoted full time at ManifestPositivity.org. I will donate and support your work in other ways.
Peace,
Dave
Greg Bacon Says:
Other journalists that refused to get 'embedded' with the Pentagon in Iraq wound up on a slab.
That's what the 'home of the free and the land of the brave' thinks of the truth and those that dare utter those facts.
I'll support you.
Do you have a link to a donation site?
Keep up the good work, Sibel, you have millions backing you up.
bh Says:
That said, I will always support anyone who is fighting for the dream or watching the watchers on my behalf, shining light into the dark corners of our collective soul, as it were.
Ironically, without the Constitution, its protections and limits, it is precisely that good intention which ultimately leads to a police state. People are people and noone is perfect after all… well, except me, of course.
I was raised to believe that everyone is basically 'good' deep down inside and that people became criminals due to circumstances and forces beyond their control. After 45 years of first-hand experience, I do not believe that anymore (though I do endeavour to see the good or the value in everyone). And while I agree that good people do bad things sometimes, I also believe that there is a statistical number of humans, say 50%, who are simply born without a conscience or the capacity for empathy or compassion. And though people have and will continue to try, I don't believe it is possible to 'rehabilitate' them by any means, spiritual or scientific. Frankly, I'm not so sure they should be. What I mean is, whether one believes in the perfection of God's creations or simply sees the necessity, philosophically for comparison or practically for certain work the other half aren't suited to… not that I believe we should simply execute anyone that breaks any law, to weed out the bad seeds, as it were.
In any case, unless or until everyone takes responsibility to shine the light into the dark corners of their own souls and/or we simply institute the death penalty for anyone who breaks any law to weed out the 'bad seeds' (and I don't see either happening anytime soon), I'll trust and thank Sibel's soul, and others like her, to do the right thing on my behalf while I'm busy trying to save the world in my own way.
Cheers.
bh Says:
So, uh… where should I send this microphone, Sibel?
Rady Ananda Says:
@bh
whoa, dude… 50%?
Experts agree that between 1 and 6% of the popn are sociopaths.
Not half of us!
see ponerology.com for an interesting take on what happens when that 6% gets into the halls of power
then there's that infitely small portion who thinks Homo sapiens ought to be culled to 10% of current levels.
Some think even smaller than that – 500,000,000. Five hundred million max capacity for humans.
And then contemplate that the portion that is sociopathic will survive… they are the ones wiping tens of thousands of humans off the planet as we speak.
So if population does get substantially reduced, we're bottlenecking those sociopath genes…
like we've probably done in the past…
changing Homo sapiens sapiens into Homo sapiens insanitus
Sibel Edmonds Says:
bh: You are very kind. I will be working on that. In 2 or 3 weeks, I hope.
Zica Says:
Well said, Rady. I'm not sure if you agree, but I liken bh's comments to kingfisher's comments on "truthers", in that the minority sometimes gets to speak with the perception that they are more populus than in reality. I think it's called the Spiral of Silence in journalism school.
Zica Says:
bh and KF, I didn't mean any insult to you or your motives. I meant to compare your assumptions as being just that.
Zica Says:
I meant "representing more of the population" by my "more populus" bad English. That reminds me; our oldest daughter tried to repeat "police car" and said "poopy car". Now we all do.
Rady Ananda Says:
thx, Zica ~ I had never heard of Spiral of Silence, so just looked it up. That seems to be the MO used by Fox. It's certainly true we're less likely to voice an opinion we believe to be unpopular.
poopy cars.. cute
bh Says:
LOL @ Rady.
Ok, ok… maybe 50% is too high a figure for 'clinical' sociopaths. I'm not an expert, but, in my admittedly non-professional opinion, I think 1-6% sounds more like a figure for 'clinical' psychopaths. I'm not sure where the experts draw a line between the two, or even if they do. Perhaps it's a matter of degrees, but, my definition of sociopath includes way more than 6% of the populace… lol. But that's me.
Perhaps I am acquiring a cynically low opinion of humanity in my middle-age or perhaps I'm setting the bar too high, my own expectations, disappointments and desires not withstanding. (Why can't we all just be friends?)
Then again, philosophically speaking, I can see that the entire concept of "evil" is a construct, wholly relative and subject to all manner of pragmatism and rationalization. I sometimes feel that my own desire to be a "good" man and to do the right thing is merely a desperate attempt to salve the pain of my own existential angst and insanity. An empty framework upon which to hang my desire for meaning in the face of the reality that life is nothing less than mere survival. Anything more is sophistry. The desire for anything more is weakness. :p (kidding, kidding)
Thank you for the ponerology link. I've only had a chance to skim through it, but, what I've read rings quite true with me. I'm fascinated by the idea that this work was "suppressed". I wonder why?
Anyway, my (rambling) point above was that while I understand and agree with Jaye and The Police re: political vs spiritual solutions, and have considered whether (or how) to make that point in some appropriate fashion that might fit or resonate here, and not come off sounding like a troll, ie. belittling the work being done or proposed here… the bottom line is that's MY bag and probably belongs in my own blog. And, in my opinion, that reality doesn't make this effort any less valid or valuable in its own right. (Which is what Jaye's comment seemed to be implying… to me.)
@ Zica
Respectfully, I have no idea which comments of mine you are referring to. Nor which "truthers" comments of KF you are comparing them to. Hence, no idea how I might have been insulted by such a comparison.
In any case, I take responsiblity for my own emotional state and can only take offense if I choose to. Hence, if I feel insulted, that is my choice and my problem. For what it is worth, I think feeling insulted generally feels pretty bad, and, since I prefer feeling good, I typically don't choose to go there.
Besides, taking offense is a control game anyway whereby one plays the victim card and cries "poor me". If that ploy doesn't acheive the desired response or attention, the game can then move to the next level of righteous indignation and anger. "I've been wronged!" Ah, righteous anger and indignation, nothing quite like it for feeling powerful, strong, entitled… and right.
Zica Says:
@bh:
Here are the comments I was comparing as both being assumptions and contributing to the Spiral of Silence concept in public discourse:
KF: (Referring to 'truthers') "People that treat anything incongruent with or threatening to their personal reality with hostility.
You cannot even debate with these people; everything is a personal affront to them. Because it is about THEM, they let it define them. It is not conductive to your “just and stimulating learning environment”. They do not want to learn, they want validation and self affirmation. They want meaning – that’s why these sub-cultures exist."
bh: "I also believe that there is a statistical number of humans, say 50%, who are simply born without a conscience or the capacity for empathy or compassion. And though people have and will continue to try, I don't believe it is possible to 'rehabilitate' them by any means, spiritual or scientific."
bh Says:
@ Zica
Hm… can you point me toward the blog post where KF's comment appears so I can put in some context? It's hard for me to grasp exactly what or who is he is talking about, however, based on the Spiral of Silence wiki, I might infer it is the broad stroke of "quasi-statistical" generalization you are keying on in my comment? Though I'm not sure who in my audience is feeling afraid to "speak out" because of it…
Mitesh Damania Says:
"I also believe that there is a statistical number of humans, say 50%, who are simply born without a conscience or the capacity for empathy or compassion. And though people have and will continue to try, I don't believe it is possible to 'rehabilitate' them by any means, spiritual or scientific."
"Thank you for the ponerology link. I've only had a chance to skim through it, but, what I've read rings quite true with me. I'm fascinated by the idea that this work was "suppressed". I wonder why?"
I would say only 5-10% of the population is selfless and cares about the world and the future. The rest are selfish, brutish, bullying, scheming, individuals who have nothing on their mind but personal gain even if it's zero sum or even at someone else's expense.
People think they are in on the scheme perpetrated by their leaders. They will get part of the spoils out of the wars (both physical and economic) their country engages in.
In fact, it's dangerous to think in philanthropic terms because it tears down the way of life others have built up to leech off and enslave others. They will spot you try to bring you down. People do not like benevolent humanitarians.
The other thing is it take decades of suffering for peeople to come around and to GET IT. Just look at South America. It took several decades of suffering and impoverishment from imposed US, IMF, and World Bank schemes to finally get people to come together and rally against the ideas of colonialism and imperialism. Furthermore, it happened spontaneously.
The poor and the middle class must always fight their status quo upper class who will fight tooth and nail to keep their priviledges They deserve it because they work harder than anyone else and are smarter or have better ideas or know more things than those poor people.
Anyways, I'll post a direct link to an interview about the political ponerlogy book and also to "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised", a documentary about Venezuela and Hugo Chavez.
http://www.askbutwhy.com/2009/06/political-ponerology-harrison-koehli.html
-and-
http://www.askbutwhy.com/2009/04/revolution-will-not-be-televised-hugo.html
bh Says:
test
Zica Says:
@bh:
Yes, you're correct about the generalization being what I was keying in on. And that it probably doesn't cause people not to speak out directly, as do KF's comments I mentioned (see KF @ August 29, 2009 4:18 PM, for example of truther smear).
I think it has more to do with the creation of a world view that can be latched on to and is not necessarily representitive of reality. This might contribute to the SofS more indirectly.
So, maybe it was a bad comparison, and I just wanted to mention the SofS in relation to KF's truther smears.
bh Says:
@ Rady,
"And then contemplate that the portion that is sociopathic will survive… they are the ones wiping tens of thousands of humans off the planet as we speak.
So if population does get substantially reduced, we're bottlenecking those sociopath genes…
like we've probably done in the past…
changing Homo sapiens sapiens into Homo sapiens insanitus"
Sure. Right. And if so, wouldn't that just be proof positive that 'evil' is a relativistic construct or outdated morality created by pragmatic leaders who saw what amounts to a best path for survival for a struggling human race and calling it 'good', ie. go forth, multiply. Populate the Earth. Don't kill, don't lie, don't sleep with your neighbor's spouse, etc. In a word… 'order' supports survival. How can ‘we the compassionate’ be right if 'we' are DEAD?
Now, due to modern science and all that 'goodness', the Earth is perhaps becoming overpopulated and these concepts no longer serve our particular purpose, ie. the survival of humanity depends on reducing the population, hence, though it seems unpalatable or a perversion, a clear contradiction in terms for the survival of any particular individual, 'evil' might be seen as the new 'good' in terms of survival for the human race at large… eh?
In the least radical or offensive mode to the established constructs of good and evil, it is easier perhaps to accept "family planning", ie. birth control and abortion, but, not so easy for everyone. Still a lot of resistance to that type of "progress" dressed up in ideas like feminism, equality and freedom to choose… what a woman does with her own body. No longer a temple or vessel of God… eh?
What about capital punishment (for any crime)? What about genocide? Where do we draw that line and why?
"How many does it take before it becomes wrong, Admiral? A hundred? A million? How many does it take, Admiral?"
You could even turn it around and take a more 'traditionalist' or 'fundmentalist' viewpoint that since modern science has served to create this perversion, modern science itself is 'evil', even in the most compassionate and caring hands, even though it saves millions of lives and has allowed humanity to essentially flourish over the last century or so. One might say that turned out to be a bad thing. Plenty of people would say that and do. Even live their lives by it, from the Amish to fundamental Christians and, in some ways, even fundamentalist Muslims. So which is it… is modern science, modern technology and the progress of modern society good? Or evil?
~ continued
bh Says:
"Have you stopped beating your wife yet?"
How about this… I believe maybe nationalism is an affectation to support an outdated survival mode based on scarcity which hasn't actually existed for over a century (although, we create the illusion of scarcity to… but that is another issue).
I am a good person and I believe we are all one race and see that obviously we should help each other to survive. All of us. One world, one people, one community of humans being on Earth. As such, doesn't it make sense that we have one world government?
Buuut.. isn't that what another group of so-called good people are screaming about? This New World Order that seeks to create one world government and create one jurisdiction that will by default become a police state since there is then essentially one group in power and power corrupts absolutely?
Isn't working together to manage human society a good thing?
Well, maybe not if you are one of the weak and oppressed, eh? So, maybe it's a good thing if you weren't one of the weak or oppressed anymore and now you get to be in control. And maybe now you are the bad guy in the eyes of the weak and oppressed?
But wait, you say you are a good person and wouldn't ever do bad things like oppress people or take advantage of the weak for the good of the many, right? But, again, what really constitutes bad things?
So what if you are in control, you are responsible and the (evil) genius scientists who allowed humanity to flourish now tell you that if we don't kill off a few billion people in the next 50 years, we will run out of food and energy and have chaos and mayhem on the planet whereby humanity as we know it might not survive at all if we don't 'do something'. The only humans left might be random pockets of roughly stone age communities fighting each other over scraps of land to hunt and plant.
(Look at the marijuana growers right here in California, protecting their crop from the DEA with machine guns like a third world country or South America. Are we already there?)
But back to your quandry as president of the world… what if the only way for humanity as a whole to survive in anything like an orderly fashion is to create protected pockets insulated and maintained by wealth while the rest of the world suffers the chaos that is to come no matter what. Either dying off randomly by disease, hunger, global warming and WAR leading to total chaos, or… by whatever you must choose to do to accelerate the process in an orderly fashion to maintain some vestige of an orderly society while there is still time enough to do anything at all…
for the good of those deemed worthy to survive… oh, right, I forgot, you also have to decide who is worthy to survive…
(Still want to be president of the world?)
~ continued
bh Says:
Sure, this is only a loose and rambling hypothetical. Right? Because deep down inside we know that isn't happening and common sense tells us that those scientists who helped humanity flourish can't be 'evil'. They saved mankind from all manner of disease and invented ways to grow food more efficiently, for the good of everyone, after all. And they will surely find a way to save us all in the event that the sky really is falling. Science is the new God and Saviour.
So, breathe easy friends. Our traditional concepts of good and evil are (mostly) safe for another day. (Unless you believe all life is sacred and begins in the womb.)
But, what if Rady is right?
Is "what works" the ultimate test? What if our compassion and meekness gets us weeded out? The Darwinian genetic inferior. Unable to adapt to the current circumstance because we cling to our traditional morals and ethics and "feelings"… that Ponerology says is based on our instincts.
Doesn't that "based in instinct" make us the genetic throwback? Especially if 'we' don't survive?
Is the fact that we with feelings and compassion currently constitute the "vast majority" make us "normal" or "good" or "right"… or 'clinically' sane?
Or could our paradigm merely be an inverse example of Ponerology's pragmatic or self-deluding socio/characteropaths?
I can't help thinking of that classic line from the movie Syriana, "Corruption is why we WIN!"
I guess it's a war out there folks. And maybe we need a small group of pscyhopaths to fight for us, to get the job done, as it were. I don't know. I think it is clear that reason won't solve this increasingly hypothetical dilemma.
Jesus or somebody said that the meek shall inherit the Earth.
For what it is worth, I do still believe. I believe we will make it because a) I'm on the job
, and b) because we have to. At least I have to believe that. Honestly, though, I'm not nearly so sensitive as I was as a younger man.
Oh well, back to work. Jus' havin' silly fun.
Make it a 'good' day everyone!
PS ~ Sorry if this went too far or off-topic. Probably belonged in my own blog.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
bh: Not off topic; thought-provoking. If I remember correctly you deal w/tech.-Engin. Yet this is a pretty astute socio- anthropological line of thinking…
bh Says:
Er… thanks.
I was just trying to have a little fun running with Rady's line of thought, creating a semi-absurd scenario to illustrate how relative (I think) the concepts of good and evil become when faced with the sort of extreme moral/ethical conundrums most leaders eventually face.
I tried not to get too off the wall with it.
In any case, yes, my educational background is mostly science/technical (Electrical engineering and some mechanical).
I also attended music school (piano, violin and voice).
But I've worked in different fields over the years and studied many other subjects on my own. I left computers to work in the arts. Then fell in love with motorcycle racing. Along the way I lived at a Buddhist monastery for a time and recently I've been working in sales and studying real estate. And preparing to return to school soon.
I look forward to telling you all about it someday.
Zica Says:
I can hear Floyd Crow Westerman singing now: "Here Come the Anthros!"
I saw him speak at a native language symposium in the early 90's. He told us about an idea for a white people museum and called it "The Museum of Unnatural History".
Back to the Spiral of Silence. It seems to me that this is the poison that the witches and their victims put in the well. Maybe it's not a well at all, but a hole dug just big enough to fit all of our neighbors' bodies.
Think for a moment about the absence of belief and the responsibility that comes without it.
brenz Says:
Sibel,
Thanks for your bravery and standing up against that big ugly machine. Your story clarifes a few doubts I've had all media esp the so-called alternate ones.
Also knowing, which I didn't before, that there were actual people internal CIA/FBI/NSA who were pushing for an intependent investigation of 9/11. I've been ready to fight and begin the incredibly necessary but painful deconstruction of this ugly machine.
I'm ready, and happy to give you money. Thanks again.
Zach Says:
On selflessness -
When all is said and done, one little piggy got one hell of a ride.
Neylan Says:
It's great to come in here to do a little reading
Inspiring! Thanks, Sibel, for being a fount of courage and energy.
Wanted to share with people here an old (1992) but very important BBC documentary on Gladio. Many of you may already know all about it but I just became aware of its existence. It's in 3 parts and can be found at http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=16921 and http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_elitesecretsocieties.htm
I highly recommend it for an understanding of the foundations of what we're dealing with now.
Sibel Edmonds Says:
Neylan: Welcome. You are right-many haven't even heard the word oper.Gladio. And you are 100% right again when you say 'for an understanding of the foundations of what we're dealing with now.' Hope to see you here regularly.
jim Says:
"Please let me know if you are ready to support this."
Yes. This sort of thing is long overdue & I'd be glad to support it. Who knows? You might even start a trend: making real journalism cool again after all these years.
I've bookmarked this blog & will keep an eye out to see what happens.
theepitbull Says:
FYI
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1243212/Former-UN-weapons-inspector-caught-online-sex-sting.html
Former UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter caught in online sex sting
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1243212/Former-UN-weapons-inspector-caught-online-sex-sting.html#ixzz0ctgp9ThF
(((3)))